Doom, or Sunshine? It Depends…

[Why do some who frequent this forum see only blue skies ahead for the economy while others expect something like economic Armageddon?  Forum regular Andy Gutterman, aka ‘Avocado,’ has a theory that one’s point of view may be colored more by income level than by any other factor. In the guest commentary below, he looks at his own circle of friends to expand on the point. Meanwhile, whatever we as individuals might expect, Government itself sees the clouds parting in 2014, ushering in strengthening growth into 2018. Could the Congressional Budget Office be right?  The answer, according to Andy, would probably depend on how optimistic you are about your own economic future. RA]

Fred and I are former Republicans now voting Democrat (I voted straight Republican ticket everywhere from 1972 to 2000, then Democrat in 2004 and 2008, Libertarian in 2012, and Democrat in VA in 2013. Even Obama got to me after his election in 2008. Obama cannot lead.) Bob is a Republican turned Democrat. I know Thomas is a Democrat. Charles is Democrat turned Republican — Tea Party, no less, hence the lively conversations. Yet Fred and I and probably Bob are closet Republicans, and if the Republicans could field a viable candidate we would might vote for them in 2016. (Ted Cruz is not a viable candidate).  Here goes:

Muddle Along Indefinitely?

Fred argues — persuasively, I’ll have to admit — that there’s no good reason why we cannot continue to muddle along indefinitely. Why does there have to be a crash, he asks? Part of his argument rests on the fact that although I’ve been expecting a crash for 30 years, it has yet to occur. And if 2008 produced as much of a crash as we’re going to see, it must be acknowledged that the Government, or the FED, or the two acting in concert, were able to stop it in its tracks. So why couldn’t they do it again in the future, Fred wonders? I’m hard pressed to counter this argument.

I think this is Bob’s position as well, gleaned from reading his email.  Charles, Thomas and I see it differently. Yet none of us have succeeded in convincing Bob or Fred to change their minds.  It may be because of our different stations in life. Fred is much better off than the rest of us, although Bob is pretty much in agreement with Fred, even though Bob is also at the bottom. Fred may see the world through a different lens. People at the bottom who live from paycheck to paycheck worry about what will happen if the economy slows down to the point where we cannot pay our bills. I think the economy would have to slow down a lot more for Bob and Fred to feel the same way, even though Bob is on the bottom rung as well.  Charles, Thomas, Bob and I are among the bottom 15%, while Fred is in the top 25%. (Click here for a handy little calculator can tell you where you are.) I’m at 12%, Fred at 75% (i.e., bottom 12% and top 25%).  And married. We see the world very differently.  So we have four very intelligent people at the bottom and one near the top – a good cross-section of haves and have-nots. (There are of course a lot more have-nots than haves.) If you are a have, then you see the economy one way; if you are a have-not, you see it differently.

The Wealthy Peak Later

Generally speaking, people with money reach their spending peaks later in life. Most consumers peak in their mid- to late-forties; wealthier people, in their early fifties. This is possibly what has kept the economy humming longer than it might have if our spending patterns were equal. The challenge for those who foresee doom is to explain why it is inevitable. This is the an important concern for everyone else as well, since, if most people don’t see extremely hard times coming, they aren’t going to prepare for it.

Naturally, the Congressional Budget Office paints a rosy picture. After the economy adjusts this year to the slower fiscal growth inherent in current law, the CBO predicts, underlying economic factors will lead to more rapid growth:  3.4 percent in 2014, and an average 3.6 percent a year from 2015 through 2018.  Moreover, says the CBO, the effects of the housing and financial crisis will continue to fade, and an upswing in housing construction (albeit from a very low level), rising real estate and stock prices, and increasing availability of credit will help to spur a virtuous cycle of faster growth in employment, income, consumer spending, and business investment over the next few years.

Relative to this sunny forecast, the question becomes, What doom?  It must be noted, however, that in 40 years of studying CBO projections, I’ve never seen them factor a single recession into their outlook. It’s as though, in their crystal ball, recessions simply don’t exist.

  • mava January 10, 2014, 10:00 pm

    Do politicians have influence on the Federal Reserve?

    A lot of folks have done their first stage considerations on this matter and have concluded (just what the government wanted them to conclude), that the FED is a private bank.

    They have peeled off a first layer of the obfuscation onion. Every time you construct an onion, you design layers inside to have a meaning opposite of the neighboring layers. “I am your friend, because I really am your secret enemy, since I even more secretly your friend,…… and so on”. This way, if you have a penetrator who went too far (singular, special case), then he will get stuck on some layer, 50/50, which one. If it is still the layer that dis-informs him, you just let him be. If it is the one that correlates with the truth, then all you have to do is simply to “reveal” one more level to him.

  • redwilldanaher January 10, 2014, 7:48 pm

    Rick, with your recent comments regarding the Obamacarescam dragging on the economy this year, I wanted to ensure that you saw this:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-01-10/fed-hints-reason-qe5-obamacare

    Justification for more hypermadness from the psychopaths. Surprised?

    I thought not.

    Anyway, ZH is a treasure trove today. Worth of visit y’all.

    &&&&&&

    ZH’s idea is flawed, Red Will. The idea of firing up QE5 to offset the huge new tax that is Obamacare won’t work simply because QE5 ‘money’ only exists within the bulls**t realm of Treasury paper, ethereal financial instruments and financial-asset flows. Obamacare’s costs, on the other hand, are quite real, and it is only a direct infusion of cash into individual household accounts that would have a mitigating (and perhaps hyperinflationary) effect. Obamacare threatens to precipitate, not a financial crisis, but a household cash-flow crisis. RA

    • redwilldanaher January 11, 2014, 5:25 pm

      I hear you loud and clear Rick. Over the years I have learned to simply look for the justification to show up in print somewhere. That’s the ringing of the bell imo. As you note indirectly, the bulls need no tether to reality to “run” with idea. The very hint that “we’ll be there” should Obamaocare serve a drag is enough for them to keep their keyboard’s “buy” button locked on all day. This isn’t quite the ‘Nank stating something to the effect that “subprime is contained” but it’s a start towards even greater detachment. As should be doing time lying scammer Jimmy Cramoo used to write: “I can see Buzzy and Batchy at MoMo fund llc. being trained enough at this point to keep on buying.

      Buzzy: Something’s not right, we’re not instantly winning anymore, gotta be the Obamaocare drag bro.

      Batchy:Nah, no bigs Buzzy, we’re so far ahead on this QE Gravy Train, just keep on keepin’ on buyin’ the fracking dip! Besides, Old Yellen’s party official barked a while back that they got our backs should Kenyacare impact in a bad way. It’s cool, pomo on…

    • mava January 12, 2014, 2:21 am

      But, as a result of this ethereal mechanics, real paper dollars are produced and could be sent to the people. No?

    • John Jay January 12, 2014, 2:32 pm

      Rick,

      “Ethereal financial instruments”

      Would that include 53,000 ES contracts trading in 15 seconds, followed by another 30,000 contracts trading in the next 15 seconds when there was a minor failure of support the other day?
      Which only pushed the ES back up about two full points?
      “Ethereal” is the word!

  • Charles January 10, 2014, 7:19 pm

    In his presentation Andy noted the political preferences of all involved then proceeded to drop the political angle from the discussion to assert outlooks were primarily based on income level. I think which side of the political spectrum one lands has a lot to do with outlook. Me, the the tea partier has been on the receiving end of a lot of vitriol from both sides of the political aisle. Charles AKA Mr Negative
    After hearing for four years, on the threads with Andy, Bob, and Fred how the republicans did everything in their power to enable the rich to get richer, they would now have me believe that President Obama and the democrats, have ZERO control and influence over Federal Reserve policy. Imagine that! And all the while Obama chooses the appointees.
    So with the Federal Reserve’s failed double whammy of 2% inflation and ZIRP combined, we have all witnessed for five years, the biggest wealth transfer in the history of mankind, from the middle class to the rich folks and the left wingers on the thread would have ALL believe that President Obama and the democrats had absolutely no control, or influence, over Federal Reserve policies and the Republicans are 100% at fault all the years previous to Obama and the democrfats tenure for the rich getting richer.
    My opinion is that President Obama has done for the rich more than all other Presidents combined. Most of the time I get the sound of crickets when I state what, in my opinion, is the obvious.
    There was some excellent response to my last post asking for positive news and I’d appreciate folks opinions specifically on whether politicians do or do not have influence on the Federal Reserve?
    BTW I see why Ricks Picks comes up at the top of a Google or MSN search! Lot of excellent input by a lot of informed people.

  • Andrea January 9, 2014, 9:00 am

    “…the sole monoped in a global footrace of currency quadriplegics.”

    Even though I sometimes haven’t a clue what you are
    saying, Rick, it’s stuff like this–and the belly laugh I get from your creativity–that keeps me hanging around.

    • VILE VLAD January 10, 2014, 7:01 am

      come on, rick, let me answer andrea… she sounds like just my type of… admiring gal.

      and you plagiarized that quote, she so admired… from the old spaniard saying—

      en la tierra de los ciegos, el tuerto es rey.

      &&&&&&

      Plagiarized? No way, not me, not ever. I altered the metaphor because I felt that your old Spanish saying did not adequately describe the deplorable condition of the dollar and other currencies. Neither did it quite capture the devaluation Olympiad in which currencies are all racing to the bottom. That’s why I altered the metaphor to suggest a foot race. And there is this: Plagiarism implies the writer is trying to fool readers into thinking he is the author. Although Andrea may not have recognized the source from which I was borrowing, I’m sure many others did.

      Incidentally, if you want to communicate with Andrea via email — or with me, for that matter — but retain your anonymity, here’s something new from Gmail:

      “How it works with email addresses Emailing Google+ connections works a bit differently to protect the privacy of email addresses. Your email address isn’t visible to your Google+ connections until you send them an email, and their email addresses are not visible to you until they respond.”

      ps: Sensitive, gentle and caring guy that you are, I’m sure I don’t have to tell you that Mario has extended the olive branch to you today.

      RA

  • VILE VLAD January 8, 2014, 11:40 pm

    (rick wrote this yesterday, in hisdaily trading tout) —
    …I have no problem telling you that I SEE ALMOST NO POSSIBLITY that the Diamonds WON’T reach the ambitious, 175.89 rally target shown. That would equate to an 1100-point rally in the Dow itself —”
    (CAPS AND BOLDS MINE)

    and this early 2014 long-ballish bullish prognostication of rick’s (of another 1,100 remaining runup in the dji, up to 17,600 area), reminded me of another even longer, tape-measure homerun bull-call that he made about 2 year’s ago (sometime in early 2012, if I recall), when the dji was still weakly reeling around the 12,500 area for several months, still shaken up, from the near-knockout punch of july-sept. 2011.

    but rick came out one day back then, in early 2012, and wrote something so crazy, I thought he had gone off his usual p.c. meds (so he won’t rant anti-p.c. comments online, like I do), and he had fully gone off his rocker.
    and I spent around 3 weeks laughing at what he wrote. and I told him so. and even he admitted to agreeing with me, that his new amazing pivot-point long-term new dji target, seemed totally incredible to him also, we all we both knew about the corrupt, bloated deficits and debts, of the finance world fundamentals.

    yet there it was, his new amazing pivot point target, and he couldn’t go against it.

    (and I don’t work for rick, nor even really know much about his method, except that he uses a 4 abcd method, based on % move models– as opposed to elliottwave, which uses a 12345/abc system, but also uses % move models, plus much more, and a huge amount of mega-diverse related fundamental data, which I am sure ‘rick and his camouflagers’ (sounds like a 1960’s rock band) also have.)

    and what I write is not even praise, because I never praise anyone, except myself. haha. however, it is just a fact, of an amazing call he made. (and I am surprised, that he does not tout it often, citing what a ‘bloody briliant genius’, he is, in making it.

    and here is what the host dude wrote, with the dow at circa 12,500— that is new long-term bewildering target was–

    14,969.

    yep, rick called for an froth insane 2,500 point dji rally, starting in early 2012. and it doesn’t sound like much now, but back then, it was.

    and I recall that number in particular, because of it’s 69 tail-end (pun intended); plus, I also thought that exact end 69 number was chosen in particular by alike-minded warped-humor rick, and for the same reasons, that I remember it. ha.

    (when he could have easily just said— 15,000):

    And if I remember correcly, the primary basis for this newly triggered sky high target pivot-target, was the dji’s prior peak in april 2011 (12,833) that had just been strongly and easily broken upward, in early 2012.
    (btw, rick, I am sure you know, 15,000 area has now been tested 3 times in 2013 and has always held, so it is now a rocket lift-off base).

    I personally remember this period well, of late 2011 and early 2012, because it was then, that I was wiped out of the stock game. I bet against rick. and I lost. no problema. because you can’t win if you don’t bet. and I am used to winning. however, due to those loses I took then, I am out of the game totally. but the addiction of the game, and of reading about it, nearly daily, is something I still do. And mostly searching, for what will be the endgame trigger point, the firing off of the inevitable collapse, when the current ocean of lies dries up, and all there is left is a worldwide sahara, of debt-based carrion-bird thirst-dying truths.

    therefore, I am not laughing at rick, this time. so 17,600, it probably is, for those of you still in the game. even though I am not.

    and IMO, rick’s 1100 point dji hike, will occur VERY fast. in next few months, definitely before first half of 2014 ends, IMO.

    why? because practically ALL MAJOR crashes are setup, by an intensely manic PARABOLIC last rise.

    EVERY major mania chart looks nearly identical–a perfect parabolic final manic phase, where the general public stomps in like laughing confident elephants, as they are now, already doing, and by record numbers.

    examples— look at both the manic charts of last 12 years of gold and silver, in retrospect, they are obvious to see. or of japan’s, in the 1980’s. or also, obviously, 1929 dji, 1987 dji, tulip mania, south sea bubble, mississipi scheme, and the 2 real estate manias, of the 1920’s and of the 90’s til 2006. and the current already exploded mania into 10 yr. usa bonds, down to an incredible 1.4%, low return in 2012, yet now, already up to 3% in less than a year, etc. it’s human manic nature, when they feel overconfident, as a group. prechter calls it ‘the herding instinct’, and it is quantifiable, and solely as a social phenomenon, according to prechter.

    however, prechter how now been wrong, since the end of 2009, when he went double-short, and I was there to witness his error. and he has still remained wrong, since then. yet he still keeps compiling extraordinary fundamental, irrefutally unique evidence, of the final coming debt-based storm, leading to a worldwide deflationary holocaust, that will hit as fast and unexpected, as sky filled swarm, of chinese locusts on a rice field.

    and with now, the extreme current alltime high levels of marging borrowing, shadow banking, the return of same money levels of max. bank leveraging into derivatives, as high as 2007 or higher, and the FEARLESS PILING INTO JUNK BONDS, and not just in usa junk, but entire world junk debt paper–for example, can you believe that there are people crazy enough to still lend money to greece?

    and the greek rates have gone down tremendously this last year, if what I recently read is correct, from around 40% at their near dropping out of the eu 2 years ago, to about 18% last year, and down to just 6%! who buys longterm bonds from greece (I think it was the 5yr bond), for only a 6% return?!? haha. any of you reading, want some? ha.

    I mean, who is insane enough to lend millions, or even billions, at only 6% return to the totally broke, fully corrupt greece– with near 30% unemployment, with an atrocious tax collection corrupt system, plus, believe it or not, already in a massive DEFLATIONARY SPIRAL—for 2013 was the worst EVER deflationary period in greece’s history (since ww2, of course, where greece got bigtime hammered by the nazis), with an additional 2013 shrinking of their already shrunken economy, of near 5%.

    AND THE MOST AMAZING THING IS, this is that all this is occuring during a massive INFLATIONARY period, from all the world central bankers, especially eu central bank, for them… so just imagine when that ends, what will happen to–greek junk bonds. (and if they are made on soft paper, at least they are still good for one thing).

    and also, all the other myriad junk bonds, worldwide.

    junk debt paper, which includes many usa cities and states. and nation, of course.

    but the usa is not alone in this. each and every nation of europe, including the northern richer ones, even germany, has humongous national debts.

    for example, I read last year, that not only the country of spain is burdened with debt to the gills, but also all their individual cities, regions, banks; but all are still, just barely hanging on, with the current eu central banks pumping INFLATIONARY new billions of euros into all it’s weaker eu economies, like spain, with over 25% unemployment, a constant money and brain drain, money leaving that country by the bucketful, plus most of it’s young talent moving to other countries, just to be able to have a career, and pay family bills.

    I’ve also read spain’s has a huge excess in unsold condominiums, that are like ghost or now so-called near ‘shanty towns’, with the unemployed homeless breaking in and living in them, without elec., water, etc, but just to get off the street at night, and sleep indoors. condo prices there have been cut in approx. half. and there have been many suicides, due to never-before experienced utter penury.

    and closeby portugal, is not much better. and corrupt italy, is just a notch behind them, in all similar deflationary issues. so none of these nations debt-papers, are worth much. in other words, LOTS OF WORLD JUNK bonds, that will NEVER payoff, anything, for anyone, and these from supposed 1st world nations.

    and I write all this, just as a european backdrop, for what the entire world will soon have, most of all–

    JUNK, WORTHLESS, deadbeat, unredeemable bonds.

    of all sorts. national, regional, city, corporate, etc.
    needless to says, this will trigger worst deflationary multi-generation period of all time. it’s already factored in cards. no escape.

    meanwhile—the usa stockmarket continues, blithely higher.

    IMO, it must be ’cause the usa suckers, are the biggest of suckers, of all time.

    (’cause I believe usa is the only world market left, setting new record highs, I don’t think even germany, has broken it’s old prior highs).

    but can ‘masters of the universe,’ keep juggling debt balls in the air, endlessly? (and I am amazed they’ve done it this long, so hats off).

    however, all until—one day, kaboom. one juggler stumbles, and all balls fall. usa market implodes, overnight. and no one gets out.

    and after this day, the bottom-fell-out today, ma, it’s dooms-day, then— the planned ‘brave new world order’ starts. for all alive, in this– ‘prison planet.’

    and ‘tight stops’ ? here is where, I strongly disagree with rick. for he knows all I know about markets and much more, yet—

    I think he must have liked playing with matches as a 2 year old, and applying them to his cat’s tail, to see what he would do.

    because ‘tight stops’, in this insane, totally fake, quasi ‘recovery’ bull (full of bull shhtt) market, IMO, have no chance of working.

    so yeah, right. don’t make me laugh. think ‘tight stops’ will work? IMO, and experience, no way. you know why?

    because, when there are ZERO BUYERS, AND ALL SELLERS, ‘tight stops’, OVERNIGHT, don’t mean jackshhtt.

    so KAPLUNK go all your positions, overnight. and HOW LOW IT WILL GO, is the only question, before some courageous soul, takes a chance of buying, your overleveraged, ‘margin-called’, panic dumped shares.

    as an anecdotal personal example of this, I did some minor BUYING on the day of the 1987 crash, because I knew for certain the prior weekend, that market would crash on monday–(long story to tell why I knew, so I´ll pass on that, besides, I took no chance, as you will now read). So, I took my little money, and placed 5 BUY orders by phone with a broker (no online automated brokerages back then), and BEFORE the market even opened, and on 5 different BLUECHIPS—bluechips, mind you, with –SUPPOSEDLY– the most daily volume. AND I PLACED ALL 5 ORDERS AT 1/2 –HALF– THE PRICE THEY EACH CLOSED ON FRIDAY. (and mind you again, all stocks had been falling all previous week long, so these prices I was cutting in half, were already somewhat depressed prices).

    and, even though the big one day crash of 1987, was a rocking unmatched 22.5% drop by the closing bell, I ENDED UP HAVING ALL 5 OF MY POSITIONS FILLED by noon, and AT 1/2 THEIR CLOSING PREVIOUS DAY’S PRICE. AND ALL WERE BLUECHIPS.

    and that, ladies and germs, is what is called—PANIC SELLING, WITH ‘MARKET’ SELL ORDERS. (btw, I sold them all my positions the very following day, since on the typical aftermath of a huge crash, there is always a ‘dead cat bounce’ the next day. and I made a good profit on them all, made around 50% in just one day, but, since I didn’t have much to bet to start with, so it wasn’t much money).

    and that’s what’s ah comin’, IMO, one day, and very soon.
    PANIC OVERNIGHT MARKET SELLING, BY ALL.
    ALL PANIC SELLERS. AND ZERO BUYERS.

    and wait until ‘da boyz’ hyperspeed computer programs also kick in, on the way down. it’ll hal-9000 time. because for sure, ‘da boyz’ will know first of all, IMO, when the finance dam is finally fully broke, beyond any fixing. so they will be selling overnight, even their kitchen sinks, before near all of you even wake up. occur overnight. while you is ahs leep. ‘da nightshift boyz’ will getcha. and as was always intended to occur all along, of course.

    and I have no idea what the particular trigger will be. however, 2 of my favorite horses on this race to the deflationary human endgame of all times, are these—one of the small broke countries of the 5 piigs, will drop out of the union, despite all eu member howls.
    and here are the positions I have for these 5 endgame horses, in probable order of finish (that is, in dropping out of the eu, and creating world fiat havoc—-

    1. greece, 2. italy, 3. portugal, 4. ireland, 5. spain

    (however, if wealthier catalonia breaks away from spain, as they have threatened to do several times, spain could be a surprise win darkhorse).

    and I said I had 2 favorite horses, in this big stakes world-debt race, as to whom triggers financial armaggedon (as rick called it yesterday), and obviously, greece is still my obvious number one pick, to win this ‘eu dropout’ race.

    however, my number 2 personally preferred pick, is not listed above, and probably is going to be somewhat of a shocker, for some of you (but not to rick, of course).

    I think there is a very good chance, of germany, dropping out first, of the eu. yep. germany.

    because germany has been pushed and pushed around, now for years, by all the eu nations (and not just the greedy piigs, all of them) to finance a much greater chunk of the european massive nation by nation constant overspending, and the german people are mad as hell about it (and they ain’t gonna take it anymore) since the german constitution is probably the tightest in the world against permtting any legal inflationary measures (so no more weimar for them, it seems), and there already are parliamentary powerful nationalistic movements, within the country, that want to fully pull out of the eu asap, and go back to the strong german mark. so—it’s interesting times, there too.

    so germany could end up winning that race, to see who triggers the final ‘armaggedon.’

    and yes, I know the germans would only do this, as a very last resort, only if they were totally sure that there was no other way to save their own economy, and keep the autonomy of their nation and of their purse strings. yet, to get to the point of them actually doing this drastic move, they will have to clearly see, wait until there are irrefutable signs, that the ‘e.u. titanic’ is already unavoidably sinking, and there was only 1 escape boat left on it, and for only 1 nation to fit in. and then, I will bet that the smart krauts, do grab that last boat first.

    of course, this is only the ‘national’ horse race top selectees I mention above, for the ‘crash trigger’ stakes race.

    as there are also preliminaries for this final ‘triggering endgame’ race, and, there are also some ex-great world banks, mainly in europe, with a bunch of them already heavily on the ropes, due sky-high piles of bad loans, so these ex-great world banks, could be late qualifiers, to enter into the ‘crash trigger’ stakes race, and possibly even win it.

    (ackerman, obviously, I went on a writing binge today, nothing better to do. if you want to use any of the above to start a weekly commentary, alright, however, do NOT even mention my VILE VLAD nickname, just say it is from one of your regular posters, that prefers anonymity. (and I know you will hate my writing that ‘tight stops’ won’t work, in an overnight panic crisis. so I want to read, how you address that).

    &&&&&&

    Wowie! Just because I ’86’ half of your posts doesn’t mean I don’t want you around, Vlad. Your rants can be great fun, illuminating for all — and even beneficial to me in a promotional way, like the above. The range of your knowledge is startling at times — as though you’ve imbibed a million web pages and not forgotten anything. Autism? Mutant genius? Whatever the case, we can always use a little econcyberpunk/ZeroHedgie attitude around here.

    It surprised me that you were so familiar with Chris Carolan’s professional history. Chris and I spent many years together on the PSE trading floor, and we were good friends. Bob Prechter I do not know personally, but I have great respect for his work. Although I have been writing about the coming deflationary bust for nearly two decades, as far as I’m concerned he owns the topic.

    Regarding ‘tight stops,’ all I can say is that you are dead right. But were you aware that I’d drum-rolled 1846.75 as a rally target for the E-Mini S&P? This was a target a year in coming, and it could yet prove to be a very important one. The futures have made their so-far all-time high a tick below it.

    The thing is, I didn’t have the balls to short S&P 1846 because the target was hit on a last-minute run-up, moments before the markets closed for New Year’s Eve. To add to the frustration, I had foreseen this very precisely in a trading ‘tout’ that went out to subscribers midmorning, before the run-up, with ES loitering around 1840.00. Here’s what I wrote: “In the chat room just now, an alert Pivoteer identified a very compelling target on the weekly chart at 1846.75. The futures are not likely to exceed it, at least not today, since the target is clear, clean and unmistakable. But it will not necessarily make for an ideal short, since, Mr. Market being his diabolical, sonofabitch self, the futures are liable to be hovering within a point of it when 2013’s final bell rings.”

    And so it went. And so it goes.

    RA

    • Dale January 9, 2014, 4:30 pm

      From your question above, regarding where I got the 2013 dollar equivalent to 1933’s 15K… use the calculator on the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis website (upper left). https://www.minneapolisfed.org/

      Dale

      • Dale January 9, 2014, 8:15 pm

        Overall a great post, Vlad. Brings to mind many memories. You “did some minor BUYING on the day of the 1987 crash… and placed 5 BUY orders by phone with a broker (no online automated brokerages back then), … ” Been there, done that. Brokers weren’t answering the phones that day. I lost nearly $250k (unrealized profits) that Friday thru Monday. The market had been going up every morning for days and days and fading in the afternoons. So I was purchasing calls on the OEX (and a few stocks like Teledyne) in AM and puts in PM. Pyramiding. It was working well for several weeks until Black Friday. As fate would have it my wife’s car had a cracked windshield and she insisted that I take it in and get it replaced that Friday morning. When I returned around 1 Pm, I had been virtually wiped out. It was so traumatic that I didn’t trade for several months and missed the great comeback.

        Regarding the German people being mad as hell, reminds me of an anecdotal story as well. I worked in West Berlin in the early ’80s. One icy snowy winter morning I was running late for work and made a left turn where a right turn only sign was posted. I though nothing of it because the road I was crossing (2 lanes separated by an island) to make the turn was closed due to construction. There was a bus stop on the far lane that I turned onto and everyone was shaking fists at me, one lady jumped into the road to point at the sign I ignored and a couple threw snow balls at me! The are firm believers in following the rules to the letter without exception.

        The facts you cited regarding Spain are all true but… the worst is over. Last week, IMF chief Christine Lagarde said the Spanish banks are now solid and healthy. Moody’s raised its outlook this month from negative to stable, following S&P and Fitch. Bill Gross has indicated that he is ready to enter the Spanish bond market. George Soros also. It’s stock market is up 50% from its mid-2012 lows. Foreign investment and tourist dollars are pouring in. Spain’s infrastructure is world class… it has some of the best roads, rail and airports anywhere on the planet including the largest high-speed train network in Europe, second-larges in the world behind China. It has six liquefied natural gas import terminals, the most in Europe.

        …and close by Portugal, is not much better. and corrupt Italy, is just a notch behind them… Spain is ranked 5th of the top 24 Best Retirement Havens in 2014 by InternationalLiving.com and Ireland is #11, Italy #14 and Portugal #15 ahead of Belize #22)

        Also, I agree with your assessment of tight stops. Not only in a “fast” market as you refer to, but any market. I relate it to the saying “if you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime” and would say “if you can’t take the hit, don’t place the bet”. I have been stopped out of a number of eventually profitable trades by placing recommended tight stops.

        Dale

      • VILE VLAD January 10, 2014, 6:40 am

        dale, I am speechless on this matter. never thought it was this bad.
        for, if both inflationary calculators you gave me, are authentically correct,
        that 15k usd in 1933, is equivalent to 270k usd in 2013, it’s in-friggin-credible.
        this is a worse crime, than 6 million killed jews in ww2 camps. for I assure you,
        many more million humans will die soon, in similar circumstances—over 600 million+,
        IMO, and all coldly methodically calculatedly planned, just like the power-mad hitler.

      • Cam Fitzgerald January 10, 2014, 12:54 pm

        Geez Dale, that story of yours is almost tragic. Worst timing ever. Did you end up divorced?

      • VILE VLAD January 12, 2014, 12:22 pm

        dale, great respond to my post, however, I disagree with you, on important matters.

        primarily, spain already’s ‘worst is over.’ IMO, that is a crock of horse manure.

        BELIEVE LAGARDE? I mean, what is difference, between lagarde and bernanke?
        both two top level POLITICIANS, world fiat money movers, that lie as they will?

        since, I agree with woody on this, as he stated in ‘annie hall’—
        that politicians are just a notch beneath child molesters.

        and as to ‘international living’, come on, are you a sucker, kid?
        since they make they’re living, from finding CHEAP beautiful places to live.
        so, fact they may be touting beautiful spain or italy, is no wonder, as they are now CHEAP.

        and bill gross opinion? haha. this bond sucker has been dead wrong for last 2 years,
        on usa longterm bonds, and has probably taken a huge billion dollar hit, on it.
        but, if he love spanish bonds so much, why does he say he is ‘ready’ to buy them,
        yet, still not doing it? these people are all 1%ers. and they feed each other’s bull.

        and as to moody, fitch, s&p, come on. they are bought and sold to highest bidder.
        however, tell me if you recall—back in 2008, weren’t all three top world rating agencies
        bullish on the markets, bonds, etc, and even on their mother’s selly knickers?
        way of the world. all bought and sold. you are naive, when you buy the manure you read.

        and you don’t need to school me on beauty of spain. not just visited, but lived there.
        maybe I was even born there. but that’s no one’s business, but my own.

    • Buster January 9, 2014, 5:38 pm

      Totally agree with the misplaced faith in tight stops.
      I’ve seen their worthlessness on many occasions over the years.
      Personally, as previously outlined regarding the seven year Sabbath cycle, & bearing in mind that we’re now moving into what is effectively ‘Friday’, I would definitely not be long stocks at any point from this time on, at least not ’till 2015 is well under-way & presumably at much, much lower prices.
      Better to be cautious now, particularly considering the extremes we’re witnessing . Just MHO.

      • Rick Ackerman January 9, 2014, 11:48 pm

        My stops are trading stops, and they are tight because the technical method I have developed over the years and use rigorously – the Hidden Pivot System — is capable of routinely nailing tradable swings in the E-Mini S&P within a tick or two. (Visit the chat room and ask around if you doubt this.) That said, I sometimes wish I had the guts to trade more aggressively instead of obsessing over limiting my losses to zero on each and every trade. In that respect, many of my students are far better traders than I, and they often do better using my Hidden Pivot swing points than I’ve done myself.

        That is why I agreed with Vlad’s criticism.

      • VILE VLAD January 10, 2014, 7:05 am

        rick, as long as your day trades EXIT, before end of day, then, you’ll probably be, ok.

        but, overnight trades, no matter how lustful rich good, are — DANGEROUS death.

        &&&&&&

        I agree — but only up to a point, since the next flash crash will happen during regular market hours. My very trading-savvy friend Craig — an options-floor colleague of mine for 15 years — asserts that puts and calls are the best way to limit the risks thereof. But it’s a stiff price to pay, since, for the retail customer, options are a heavily rigged game. RA

      • VILE VLAD January 12, 2014, 11:34 am

        cam, I will not get into how I knew, monday’s ’87 crash would certainly occur.
        except for this.
        1. I am a born contrarian vs. the masses.
        2. I research a lot.
        3. and belt-and-suspenders martin weiss was the final key in the coffin.

      • VILE VLAD January 12, 2014, 11:50 am

        rick, I concur that ‘it’ could occur, during the trading day. however, I prefer overnight.
        but, I admit, utter RIGGED b-s of oct. 7, I think it was, when the incredible
        intraday last 1/2 hour of trading, came out from europe, of their ‘resolved’ issues,
        yet again, and a violent countering mega-rally ensued, in the midst of the prior panic,
        assures, that you and your buddy could be correct, and ‘it’ could occur, intraday.
        yet, I still think ‘it’ will occur overnight. like in the night of ‘the body snatchers.’

        &&&&&

        What I’ve said here — many times — is that the Great Global Collapse will be mostly over by morning, before most Americans have gotten out of bed. Which is to say, the Black Swan will come from somewhere outside of the U.S. RA

    • redwilldanaher January 9, 2014, 6:25 pm

      A very entertaining read from VV.

      Great call on Germany. I traded there for 1 year in the mid 90’s and have kept a very close friend that at one time was the head of the Eurex Paris office. Went to his wedding a few years back and had interesting discussions with many of his German friends. All generations there are tired of getting beat up for what the Nazi’s did 7 decades ago. They’re tired of that being used by other Euros to beat them up over everything (immigrations, aid, etc.). And as you note, they’re bright people. I think it could go down as you describe. Self preservation.

    • Mario January 10, 2014, 4:53 am

      Vlad delivers! Shout it from the rooftops! Power To Vlad! It’s a fine day here at Rick’ s.

    • Cam Fitzgerald January 10, 2014, 12:49 pm

      Oh Man! That was a great read Vlad. Totally enjoyed it. Agree with plenty of your points too. Tight stops and all…..best bet is to either be out of the market or no sell stops set up at all on the tragic day. Very curious to hear how you knew the crash was coming. Next post maybe?

      &&&&

      Cam: Please check your email re: guest commentary. RA

      • Redwilldanaher January 10, 2014, 7:30 pm

        VV, Rick, 20th year trading options since I became a “pro” by trading at the start on the PHLX.

        I was going to chime in a la the Craig comment, in the same way. I honestly believe that if you select your options properly, you will be fine. IMO a sweet spot exists in the term structure and with respect to delta that let’s you offset the rigged game aspect. The key is not to trade options, it is to use them as your intermediate term investment vehicle.

        &&&&&&

        For me, Red Will, ‘intermediate-term’ means around four hours. The weekly options are the way to go, since, using Hidden Pivot swing points, there’s no reason to buy an option unless you expect it to go in-the-black within the next 30-60 seconds. The ripoff factor is mainly in the criminally wide spreads, and in the ability of market makers to exploit market orders during the opening rotation.

        Of course, even the market makers wind up being the prey of larger beasts, since the firms they trade with are even lower on the scumbucket ladder. In my experience, there is no such thing as a firm order that is not being front-run. When I was making markets in Resorts International options on the PSE, no one traded those options with greater prescience than Bear Stearns, who also happened to be RTA’s investment banker. RA

      • redwilldanaher January 11, 2014, 5:34 pm

        Everyone has their preferred time horizons. As we all know, da boyz, as you call them, have amazing “powers” and can make it very difficult to enter at times even though you’ve seen something coming a mile away and were diligent and peristent in waiting for that exact moment. Overnight futures manipulation is something you hit on in your comments fairly regularly because it is and always will be a part of the game. A lot of folks can’t play all day everyday because they’re focused on scratching out a living. I prefer position trading with longer term options and then using shorter term options for the swing or day trades. Given how precised the HP approach is and your preferences in trading, I can understand why you feel as you do regarding options, especially so given your experience as well.

        You can get things done near mid market if you’re trading in the liquid index related products and if you’re looking to trade moves that effectively mirror thousands of points in the DJIA and that take weeks to months to transpire, I can personally live with a little slippage SOES I can sleep at night!

        Once again, I hear you but for the most part spreads have narrowed dramatically since I started on the floor 2 decades ago. I remember some leaps that were nearly $2 wide and beyond…

  • Andy Gutterman January 8, 2014, 2:44 pm

    On another forum, someone posted this:

    If the purpose of printing money is to stimulate the economy, why doesn’t the Fed make its lending money to the banks conditional upon them in turn lending it to consumers and the wider economy?

    My reply:

    The FED isn’t trying to “loan” money to the banks so they loan it out to us. The FED thinks that if interest rates go low enough then everyone will rush out and borrow and spend, with wild abandon. All the FED controls is short term rates, almost nobody borrows at short term rates for long term consumption or production.

    So the FED buys treasuries and other bonds to try and suppress long term rates, thinking as they go down, borrowing goes up.

    That’s not working very well. In fact, its not working at all. The money just remains on the balance sheet of the FED, the government gets funds to do what it wants to do, but the economy does nothing.

    One could ask why we aren’t rushing into the banks to borrow and spend? Well, sales suck, business people aren’t stupid, they aren’t going to expand production if sales suck. On the other side, income sucks, so consumers aren’t going to borrow and spend when they are maxed out already.

    The BIG elephant is DEBT. Everyone has too much, and the cost of servicing that debt inhibits growth, no matter how low the rates go.

    In the meantime…..Boomers are retiring, spending even less as they near retirement and actually retire, and they also start spending down their savings, assuming they have any. Anyone over 50 pretty much has spent the maximum they are going to spend every year on raising the family, after 50 that spending begins to wind down, falling off a cliff when they quit working and retire.

    There is NOTHING anyone can do about this. 80 million BB’s are going to cut spending and sell assets to pay for retirement. Nothing the FED or anyone else can do to stop this tsunami from hitting our economy.

    Andy

  • Flash January 8, 2014, 12:10 am

    1) 3d printer will replace few products of sustance(today) this needs lots of development to be robust.
    2) things should never be so bad that we have no hope nor ever so good that we have no fear. i suspect we currently have no collective fear( of the stock markets) .
    3) excess is part of the human condition. people like being part of something that seems crazy.

  • Charles January 7, 2014, 10:33 am

    I’m the Charles that Andy G refers to, with the gloomy economic outlook. Ive heard optimism about the economy from Fred and Bob. But when extending unemployment benefits to a huge number of people who can’t find work is a top priority in Congress, and Pres Obama is “all in” supporting extending unemployment benefits, I sit justified in my gloomy outlook.

    PBS does a story highlighting income inequality. I can’t help but note that no one, including Republicans, is talking about job creation.

    I really like all the contributors here at RA. The intelligent opinions and experience shared by all is top notch. Someone please explain what is going to start producing the wealth needed to turn the economy around? I could use a pick-me-up based in reality and not irrational exuberance.

    ty,

    Charles

    • Redwilldanaher January 7, 2014, 5:15 pm

      Extortion and siphons will produce wealth. Proof in the “security” pudding complex that literally now surrounds DC.

      1. Bribe a bully.
      2. Siphon.
      3. Repeat.

      • Redwilldanaher January 7, 2014, 5:38 pm

        Added benefits to this way of conducting business are that should they be forced to catch you in the act, you’re immune from prosecution and pay a relatively small fine:

        JP Morgan Pays $2 Billion to Avoid Prosecution for Its Involvement In Madoff Ponzi Scheme | Washington’s Blog

        RBS Pays $600 Million for Manpulating Interest Rates
        Washington’s Blog | Interest Rates Are Manipulated.

      • Redwilldanaher January 7, 2014, 6:30 pm

        Rick, sorry, just leaving this here for Mario and others following potential for breaking away:

        http://p.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jan/6/investor-gives-life-to-effort-to-split-california-/

        Read above regarding an “unwieldy collective”.

      • redwilldanaher January 8, 2014, 5:28 pm

        Rick, here’s something on your $1 of debt to buy GDP. Debt based growth sure isn’t what it used to be:
        http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2014-01-07/coming-epic-collapse-bond-bubble

        &&&&&

        Thanks for the link, Will. Debt-to-GDP has deteriorated quite a bit since I wrote on this topic for Barron’s more than a decade ago. At the time, it took about $2.50 of debt to create $1 of GDP growth. Now, according to the article you’ve linked, it takes more than $10. I could not have imagined this back then.

        The comments that follow the article are particularly interesting and span I wide range of viewpoints. I would strongly recommend it to all. RA

      • Jason S January 9, 2014, 7:10 pm

        Dang, over $10 of debt to buy $1 of GDP now? That pressure must be making some serious cracks in the economic dike.

      • mario cavolo January 10, 2014, 10:25 am

        Thanks Wayne!

    • Jason S January 7, 2014, 8:36 pm

      Charles,

      Here is a brief article outlining some hopeful things. Looking at the graph many of these technologies have large entrepreneurial applications. As long as governmental regulation doesn’t stifle that, I think that there is some hope that we don’t hit the global economic reset button in the near-term.

      http://www.businessinsider.com/mckinsey-technologies-that-will-disrupt-our-world-2013-5

    • PhotoRadarScam January 8, 2014, 8:19 am

      What’s going to create wealth? Well it’s easy to see that governments nationwide are counting on gambling and soon enough marijuana taxes. They can’t approve new casinos fast enough.

  • Buster January 7, 2014, 10:26 am

    The question of whether the so-called ‘Capitalist’ system, as opposed to the ‘Free-Market’, could last was supposedly answered, at the cost of his life I might add, by Nikolai Kondratiev, of the ‘Kondratiev cycle’ fame.
    Basically, so long as the Western debt based real wealth confiscation system (WDBRWCS??) could find someone to ‘wipe out’ by way of bankruptcy or war, which are both necessary to balance the books & make up for the inherent imbalance in the Banksters monetary system, namely the monetary shortfall of the ‘debt part’ which never comes into existence, proofed by the fact that debt levels can only be increased, even under austerity measures as is now demonstrated by the UK’s finances, this system, Kondratiev reasoned, could go on indefinitely. Not the answer his masters wanted, unfortunately/sadly, & not the one the increasing majority who end up on the losing side of the deal would hope for today, either, no doubt.
    The slight question mark of how QE affects this game seems to be answered by the way us debtors are miraculously kept on the hook while ‘club members’ are kept afloat in quite a bit more than meager life raft accommodation!, as seen in the figures for who financially gets the benefits of this whole debt crisis facade.

    On gold’s ‘flash crash’:
    http://blogs.marketwatch.com/thetell/2014/01/06/gold-market-flash-crash-explanations-vary-from-fat-finger-to-price-manipulation/?mod=sfmw

    “I’m afraid that today’s spike downward is further evidence that the current regulatory regime isn’t working,” said Lundin.

    ……No, it’s working very nicely, thank-you, as the regulators are all from the same club, & laughing all the way to the bank, albeit with the odd ‘licence fee’ to grease the needy hands here & there.
    Today’s ‘flash crash’ did the job of knocking out all the stop loss orders at 1232.20, 1225 & 1221.30 at the lowest price & so quickly that no-one else had any time to get a look in. They missed those at 1210, but, hey! there’s always tomorrow. All colors of traders were wiped out by it apart from those with no leverage to worry about. This is not a market for any private trader to venture into in a hurry.

    I don’t have a confident feeling about Gold’s rally anymore, sadly, but I am beginning to wonder about the decline in stocks. Could it be that the host is trying to sneak away from the party unnoticed? It may take a couple of fake starts but who knows? Rick’s pivot could be sounding the alarm bell??

  • VILE VLAD January 7, 2014, 9:12 am

    never ceases to amaze me, how most posters here try to make sense of something nonsensical.
    and they expound and expound, in minute detail, how is this, and how is that, foresworn.

    yawn.

    get over over. your world is f***ed. you are f***ed. your family is f***ed.
    so grow up. all you can do is prepare. stop blathering b-s. prepare.
    ’cause it’s a coming. as sure as rain. as our as you breathe. it’s a-coming.
    for there is zero, I repeat, zero chance, any of your words herein, means anything.
    to nobody.
    grow up. get ready. it’s a coming. all the stock market ducks in a row, as you say.

    brokers won’t pay, for they are broke. bankers, haha, even less, closed doors, to all.
    but the 10% elite, of course.
    no atm, no checks, no cards of any type, nothing, banks are closed, for nothing at all.

    you got cash at home, like rick said, you got bullets for gun, you got canned supplies?
    to feed save your family? that’s all that need concern you. cause it’s a-coming. soon.
    and not even the master market techs, rick and rich, will be able, to avoid overnight loss.
    where everything changes, forever. and all world humans go, into brave new world.

    • Jason S January 7, 2014, 8:04 pm

      VV,

      Just playing devil’s advocate here but how much do you change your lifestyle and allocate personal scarce resources to this inevitable and immediate doom? (By-the-way, inevitable doesn’t imply immediate.)

      How many people in the 50s and 60s wasted capital and time to survive a nuclear war attack that didn’t come in their lifetime? I know of one guy who quit his job and relocated his family to Colorado to avoid the 2012 Mayan calendar disaster. Hell, even the apostle Paul was certain that Christ’s return was soon upon us…until the years went by and he wasn’t.

      I agree that we all need to be prepared to some degree but I think it needs to be done in a responsible manner that takes into consideration the possibility of other outcomes so that you don’t go chasing something down the rabbit hole. I guess it comes down to diversification in all things.

      • VILE VLAD January 8, 2014, 7:41 am

        jason, I concur with all you say. you are a reasonable, sensible person.

        however, world that is comin for sure, is not reasonable. and it will come overnight.

        and it is based on mathematical market facts, not on prophesies or ww3 probabilities.

        and there are no other possible outcomes. the quadrillion world debt assures it.

        if you doubt, ask rick. for this is endgame. and when it starts, overnight, its–brave new world.

        so, the only element pending, is time. when will it explode. when will the lies end.

        but lies they are, and built on smoke and mirrors, for easy ussa, brain-scrubbed suckers.

      • Cam Fitzgerald January 10, 2014, 12:46 pm

        I think that is exactly the correct question, Jason. How much of our resources should be devoted to an unknown event that cannot be timed is a good puzzle. Some will say zero; others might go all-in. Both are probably crazy. The history of our past centuries are rife with trauma, tragedy and financial spectacles though so we can be pretty damned sure something is coming…..some day…..we just don’t know when exactly or who it will land on. We cannot therefore know exactly how to prepare. For many people it is not even feasible if they live in a condo in a heavily urbanized environment. It seems easier to predict who will be the victims than it is to know who will have success. So maybe 10 or 15% is enough to set aside to prepare for what you cannot know for sure. Like insurance. It is dead money once spent and might never be recovered anyway. All those guys who spent their nest egg building bomb shelters in the 60’s are probably still kicking themselves but who the hell really knows when that investment will finally pay off for their children or grandchildren.

  • Zach January 7, 2014, 8:08 am

    Rick—
    Lets just say that NE Asian nations have their own economic doctrines and one of them is Choi’s doctrine of comparative non-advantage that work just fine for them. Choi’s doctrine involves national industrial policy and trade barriers to protect developing industries so this means an honest capable national government nudging the economy in nationally beneficial directions. I will admit that a Barack Obama type of government would make a corrupt crony-capitalist farce of such attempts. It would have been much better if we had these policies starting in 1990.

    I made up the Choi doctrine but the NE Asian nations do not teach Riccardo in school or if they do they laugh at it, they laugh at silly Westerners who believe and practice it in naive faith and they (NE Asian nations like Korea, Japan, Taiwan etc) negate it every day via their real world nationalist, mercantilist activities.

    The real shame is the US is a continental nation, is so large with so many resources that we don’t need outside raw materials or manufactured items. But this would require pride and dedication. It is a crime that we run up such trade deficits and that we are now dependent on NE Asian nations for many electronics and tech items. It didn’t have to be this way. This is why we are left with Federal Reserve money printing as our “economic engine” which we can pull off so far due to the USD’s reserve currency status. Which partly depends on a strong military that can US project power, that has Japan buying US Treasury debt in order to buy protection from China. The same military that Obama and his minions are doing their best to ruin

    • John Jay January 7, 2014, 6:46 pm

      Zach,

      The state of affairs here in the USA has not been accidental.
      It was in the past, and will be in the future, the official Policy of the US Government as decided by, and dictated to them by the 400 families that have been calling the shots here since the days of the Robber Barons.

      From the coup Smedley Butler foiled, to TARP and Obamacare, (successful) they are always plotting and scheming to increase the wealth and power of their families. They will never give up that wealth and power. They are pitiless, and want one thing, more, more, more, wealth and power.
      They see the suffering and misery they sow as an endless source of amusement, a demonstration of their superiority.

      We would need a new, Populist Party with about 70 million hard core voters to defeat them.
      And we do not have that.
      So, feather your nest as best you can.
      That is all you can do.

    • Cam Fitzgerald January 10, 2014, 12:00 pm

      If Americans don’t need anything from abroad they are sure not proving that point very well, Zach. The US remains the biggest buyer in the globe for every concievable product made from here to Timbucktoo. The Chinese are second in the buyers camp. They dropped 1.7 trillion on the worlds biggest exporters in 2012. That is just a huge mountain of purchases and a lot of needs to be filled on an ongoing basis. It is also why we need to be worried over what looks like a developing conflict in the East China Seas because the two biggest trading partners of China are, by coincidence, South Korea and Japan (EG…the same folks who are also claiming ownership of those disputed sunken reefs and desolate islands). Hmmm. Guess they will have to decide if the trade losses caused by a conflict are worth more or less than the benefits of controlling some patches of the ocean that are still unproven where oil is concerned.

  • Andy Gutterman January 7, 2014, 6:21 am

    Dale,

    There are always exceptions. and you cannot look at people who are well-informed, like most of the people on this forum.

    I’m speaking in generalities.

    There will always be people who can see the future no matter who they are, how much money they have or whatever. But if you ask the average person who makes over $200k and does not hang out in these forums about the economy I’ll bet you find that they think everything is OK.

    I should know. Both of my grandparents on both sides of my family hardly noticed the Great Depression. On my father’s side my grandfather had a steady income of $15,000+ all throughout the 30’s. On my mother’s side my grandfather was employed as a plant manager then VP of a smallish DOW 30 equivalent.

    Depression? What depression?

    The war was much worse than the depression.

    Andy

    • Dale January 7, 2014, 6:37 pm

      Andy,

      There are exceptions, yes, like those folks I mentioned and the friends you mentioned. I, too was also speaking in generalities. The average couch potato doesn’t know or even want to know how the economy works or is supposed to work. The vast majority of the population in the US are have-nots and like their fellow couch potatoes don’t understand or want to expend the effort to understand how the economy works. Yes, some of them may be pessimistic about their immediate prospects, but I’m not so sure that they tied that in with the US economy prospects. The large majority voted for Obama for Christ’s sake. They were showing optimism, not pessimism in the US economy, believing that Obama would use an improving economy to continue supporting them.

      That war was much worse than the depression is indisputable. War is worse than “anything”. What could possibly be worse than war?

      By the way, $15,000 in 1933 equates to $270,880 in 2013. Most who are earning that amount will be “comfortable”, but being comfortable is not the same as being optimistic about the future of our country’s economy.

      Dale

      • VILE VLAD January 9, 2014, 10:21 am

        holy toledo, dale.
        for where do you get 15k usd in usa’s ’33, is to 270k usd now?
        I want to read WHERE you got that supposed usa ‘buying power’ info.
        for I think they are full of … bull.

        as I think 15k usd in ’33, is equal to between 100k to 150k range, right now.
        thus half, of what you way over stated.

        (but, when you say ’33, was it before crippled commie f.d.r., devalued dollars overnight,
        by 60%, by confiscating all usa citizen gold, and then devaluing paper dollars tied to it,
        from 20 to 35 usd a gold ounce, in order to create all his socialist programs, like s.s.?)

      • Jason S January 9, 2014, 7:05 pm

        Dale is pretty spot-on based on the inflation calculator.

        http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

      • mario cavolo January 10, 2014, 10:17 am

        Comfortable Dale? On what planet is $270,000/yr just comfortable? $60k is easily comfortable on a sane, normal budget with $500 / savings across 80% of the urban USA sans the higher cost of living states and cities.

        Cheers, Mario

      • mario cavolo January 10, 2014, 10:23 am

        Well, let’s get specific boys. Dale’s closer.

        Cost to buy a home then and now? or rent?
        Annual cost to buy and own an auto?
        Monthly cost of meat, veggies, carbs, electricity and water?

        I recall gasoline was $.40/gallon and milk $.30/quart in the 70’s, what were they in the 30’s?

        In the 60’s you could have bought a suburban 2000sqft home for $30,000 all across America including Scottsdale and where Steve Job’s parent’s lived in California. How much was a home in the 30’s?

        Cost of medical expenses then and now?
        Cost of labor to a business owner back then?
        Cost to invest in a business, like opening a nice restaurant back then?

        Cheers, Mario

      • VILE VLAD January 13, 2014, 10:51 pm

        dale, you proably won’t read this, but I am sure my punk buddy, ricky, will.

        for I cannot get my head rapped around, such a drastic inflationary sum,

        as 15k in ’33, turned into 270k, in 2013. so, it must be what I said, asked you–

        the basis is 20 dollar gold ounce, and not f.d.r.’s same year confiscated and debased asap,

        35 dollars a gold ounce. and a 60 percent ‘haircut’, as modern financial tellers tell.

        but, if we took 35 dollar number, after commie f.d.r.’s 60 percent overnight ‘haircut’,

        then, we’d have a 100k to 150k dollar range differential, as I originally told you.

        badabing.

    • VILE VLAD January 13, 2014, 11:07 pm

      you are wrong. for the depression much was worse, than the war.

      for the war was fought by men, deciding to fight to defend. and die, as such.

      but the depression was slow starvation. frustration. slow death. like ss camps.

      and it is much better to die fast, and strong, than to die slow, and weak. obvious.

    • VILE VLAD January 13, 2014, 11:13 pm

      andrew, you are wrong. for the depression much worse, than the war.

      for the war was fought by men, deciding to fight to defend. and die, as such.

      but depression was slow starvation. daily frustration. slow death. like nazi camps.

      and it is much better to die fast, and strong, than to die slow, and weak. obvious.

  • Dale January 7, 2014, 2:07 am

    Andrew G,

    Honestly, I couldn’t make heads or tails of this essay and I read it several times. OK, I’m a dimwit, who needs facts, numbers and formulas to make sense out of chaos, but don’t stop reading just yet. I know the premise, as introduced by Rick, is that a person’s financial status (wealth) supposedly colors his outlook on the economy (or his perception of how the power’s that be are handling the economy). The essay was a little discombobulated (much like this reply will be).

    Fred is a “have” and Bob is a “have-not”, but they share the same view. Have-nots (the not wealthy), are pessimistic about the economy, so now we might wonder whether Jim Rogers, Marc Faber, Jim Sinclair and a host of other Doom and Gloomers are really closet have-nots.

    I’m no Einstein, but in this case maybe we (Einstein and me) do have something in common. In 1931, Linus Pauling published a paper in the Journal of the American Chemical Society titled “The Nature of the Chemical Bond.” He argued that electrons were not simply “ionic or “covalent, as was currently believed, but somewhere in between, thus marrying quantum physics with chemistry. When Albert Einstein was asked what he thought of Pauling’s work, he shrugged his shoulders. “It was too complicated for me,” he said.

    … and from your update above, I agree with virtually everything, savings deficits, excessive spending, credit addiction and demographic divisiveness. But I’m not so sure we can divide it into only two camps. I think there is a third: The “Have-Some’s”

    You also say in point #8 “A large part of the population sees trouble ahead, a far smaller part of the population does not. The part that does not happens to be in control. They also are a part of the haves.”

    So the “haves” see no troubles ahead and the “have-nots” ( the majority of the population) see trouble brewing. I think this was the point of your essay although not actually stated precisely. Do you really think the majority sees trouble ahead? If so, for whom? The Kardashians? Duck Dynasty? The Dallas Cowboys for sure! I doubt they have a clue about where the economy is headed and will quickly change the channel whenever that subject is broached.

    I think that if your premise is correct, that wealth affects your outlook on the economy, then you have it exactly backwards. OK, so the Prez, the DC Cons and lobbyists are optimistic 1%er’s; but like Maris, McGwire and Bonds, they require an asterisk. It is not their wealth that makes them optimistic, but their ability to lie, cheat, steal and live off the 99% like parasites that allows them to get out of bed each morning with a grin. Some might compare them to parasitic barnacles on a whale, but I think they are closer to tapeworms that suck the life sustaining energy from its host.

    I would say only a “small” part of the population sees trouble ahead. A somewhat larger part (the have-some’s) is afraid of losing what little they have been able to accumulate if the economy does not improve, and the largest part (mostly made up of “have-nots”) is oblivious to what lies down the road for the economy.

    Considering my “non-investment” income, according to your chart I am a “have” with 97% (no asterisk for me, I studied long and hard, and worked for everything I attained) and therefore should be somewhat sanguine. I AM NOT! The economy is DOOMED!

    Dale

    • Cam Fitzgerald January 10, 2014, 11:44 am

      Good points. I agree Dale. Most people have not a clue what trouble lies ahead. Even if they did they would not rebel against it. There is cooperation by dependency setting in. Government has become the meal ticket and it is rife throughout society as up to half of all Americans now depend on handouts or subsidies to survive.

    • Mario January 11, 2014, 8:29 am

      Hi guys, let’s not forget that the 100 million lower end have nots now have smokin’ good deal on their annual healthcare expenses. America is capitalism that has added socialism while China is socialism that has added capitalism. Fascinating times we live in until it goes kaboom again.

      Cheers, Mario

  • mike January 6, 2014, 11:38 pm

    The “fed” and all the other greater fools, try as they might to be immortal, will never rescind the down cycle, the death cycle. Time is the illusive factor. No one knows “the time”. That is why we are so preoccupied with finite time i.e part-iculars. .

  • PhotoRadarScam January 6, 2014, 10:36 pm

    Anyone can see the path we are on, and we can’t print our way to prosperity. No government has ever succeeded in this, although several are definitely trying.

    For some reason it’s OK to ignore the country’s total debt including entitlements and just focus on the non-entitlement sum.

    The reality is that the economy may be recovering (for the moment), but it is in a precarious situation. Interest rates cannot be lowered (no where to go) or raised (economy will grind to a halt). No government can afford to pay reasonable interest rates of 5% or more on their debt. There are over $400T in interest rate derivatives that will explode balance sheets if rates just shift a few percent rapidly.

    When the “crash of 2008” hit, we had options and they were all used. When the next “crash” happens, I’m not sure there are many viable options like we had before. The world is just one calamity away from a global economic reset. Can we go a decade or two without anything big happening to spike interest rates? I wouldn’t bet on it.

    • Cam Fitzgerald January 10, 2014, 11:33 am

      Yes, we seem to be in an interest rate trap and the threat that lies ahead is that creation of the big investment banks who have painted their governments into a corner by creating a derivatives weapon so potent that it cannot be anything other than a tool of extortion.

      Rates can never rise without triggering the weapon and destroying much of the financial system itself. It is simply preposterous that nothing has yet been done to end those risky practices.

      What cannot be paid though will not be paid in the end. What seems probable to me is that it is governments that will reap the benefit during the carnage and the banks will wear the blame while the public will become unwilling stakeholders in their own financial institutions.

      In the old days there were debt Jubilees. Those were intended for those private borrowers who had become like slaves to their creditors. In the new times it is our own governments, hamstrung by obligations that cannot ever be fully paid who will demand their own Jubilee of sorts.

      It has occurred to me that no action was ever taken to reign in the risky practices of the big banks selling interest rate derivatives because in fact all governments need a scapegoat to blame for their impending policy failures. Enter the banks with their derivatives weapon and we have the setup to take the heat off those who are elected and plant it firmly on the shoulders of those who created the tools and investments that are again going to drive another crisis.

      Just a theory of course. Can anybody tell me why though, after the biggest financial scare in history, that nothing was done to stop the practices of selling the exact same derivatives that are now even larger and more dangerous than they were in 2008? All that was achieved in fact was a massive transfer of wealth from the public via government to the banks.

      The next time around we will see another massive transfer in the form of deposit confiscation to paper over the coming carnage. Joe bloke is going to be screwed both times while seeing his pension evaporate in the process. But will there be a third wave where assets also get scooped up? Probably.

      Another GFC will again see assets plummet and homes repossessed. Only those who remain debt free and employed will escape the consequences of what is coming. Problem is that almost nobody even understands this nightmare and trying to explain it to them is like spitting at the moon. They don’t believe it possible and don’t want to hear it either.

      So I suppose I belong in the Doomer camp on that note because I have some understanding of what lies ahead. I don’t imagine for a second though that anyone will be immune. The problem is just so big that it cannot be avoided unless you physically live on another planet or are already so poor that bank failures won’t mean anything at all!

  • Jason S January 6, 2014, 10:25 pm

    Andy,

    I would agree with your friends, Fred and Bob, that we can muddle through for at least a while yet. The seminal work by Ragoff and Reinhart (despite their slight data SNAFU) along with Kindleberger show that all is manageable until some point is reached when things implode suddenly and sharply. Just look at the bond markets and stock markets prior to 1907, 1929, WWI and II, prior to 1987, 1998, 2000 and 2008. The markets did a very poor job of foreseeing the coming calamities prior to their manifesting. There were of course warning signs, just as there are today but they are ignored due to greed and hubris. The greed of wanting to squeeze the last bit out and the hubris that they, the investor, will be able to exit at the last moment before the music stops.

    I look at wealth and income as means of keeping score and the more you have of them, the more the score matters. So those in the upper 25% tend to fall into the camp of greed and hubris in order to at least stay even (or increase) their score and can afford to take more risks to achieve those ends. Plus they tend to have access to influence (political, etc.) to insure or bail themselves out of losses.

    Those in the lower income/wealth brackets look at it less as a score since it is much more a means of survival. They cant take the risks and don’t have enough to wield the influence so I think they have a more realistic view of things. They aren’t playing the game as much (if at all) so they don’t have as much greed and hubris involved.

    History is batting 1000 in showing that every nation goes to an extreme and cataclysm follows. I think the US still has more time before we are forced to hit the reset button. In fact, it could be decades yet if we can hold off the economic Reaper until some new industry (nanotech, etc.) takes off to give us a reprieve. But I do have my doubts because of the negative impacts of regulation and because corporate America (the only real driving force of innovation) has so much capital being used unproductively.

    So for the next decade I am about 35% doom vs. 65% hopeful. Unfortunately, in my estimation, the doom probability continues to grow.

    • BDTR January 7, 2014, 7:22 pm

      Doom’s growth probability is off the charts, Jason. Implosion vs explosion is mere academic detail now.
      While attentive to myriad scenarios of trigger events contained neatly in Pandora’s dark socio-economic box, a more direct driver of demise, not merely one economic, but for that domino too, has already been unleashed on a self-absorbed and distracted humanity with eyes wide shut. With right in our face unequaled irony to boot.

      And we all sense, or should, within our deepest intuitive instincts, that vanity engendered hubris is our own worst enemy. We couldn’t be more right about being so wrong. Profound madness wherever you look like the bad dream it actually is. Ain’t no party, ain’t no disco.

      So, in complacence with the proffered menu of our masters, a relative state of zombie unconsciousness permeates our imminently endangered state of human being. We see, by and large, what we’re told to see, without thinking too deeply in existential terms, or broadly environmentally, let alone cosmically! The narrative’s dictated for us in wide screen 3D, and we eat it up. (At least Stanley Kubrick attempted fair warnings.)

      Too bad for us that we didn’t heed. And now it’s too late to stop to what we’ve acceded. What we failed to grasp was the graduated but absolute consuming nature in power’s prospective failure through irresponsibility, despite our repeating witness to uncompromisingly hideous and permeating effects.

      If mesmerized, we could say that we didn’t see it coming, but we’d be liars. Hopeful liars, foolish liars, conditioned, self-deluding, blind or arrogant but liars nevertheless.

      Now we’ll sit and wait. For what, one may ask? And why should I, the all too guilty as well BDTR, say what we all already know? What we all so recently mass witnessed then, incredibly, forgot in very short and mindless disorder, of course! Like stupid, petulant, engineered kids with nano-second attention spans.

      Well, not long to wait now, my friends, for what ensues. For what our corrupted, occult authority leaves us in legacy. For what we all know and for what there’s no escaping for the very many of us. You’ll know it when you see it, to be sure. Shock and tears and blame, too late. The best minds have looked, seen and shaken their heads to a most unfortunate if utterly predictable fate.

      Time left would well be spent pondering and atoning for blind acceptance of insidious evil that consumes its subscribers, the unwary, the uncaring/caring and innocent children indiscriminately.

      Spend some sadness on the children and for a future that most assuredly will never see. Doom, sleepy fellow travelers, in a poisoned sunset. We blew it.

      • Jason S January 7, 2014, 7:42 pm

        BDTR,

        I agree that we will eventually implode or explode, since I believe that entropy (second law of thermodynamics) applies to societies. I was looking at Andy’s question not just as an eventual outcome but also one of time; so I used a decade from now as my time frame.

        The reason for my shorter-term optimism is that another industry like the computer industry being created (nanotech, etc.) would be able to provide enough wide-spread growth to our (and the world’s) economy to carry the debt load and forestall doom for at least a generation. I actually think this is what the Powers-that-Be are banking on. I think this is why there is so much government money being thrown at stem cell research and solar energy. Are those two big enough and close enough to an efficacy and price-point break through to do the trick? I have my doubts. But I do think there are some things that may fit the bill that are closer to being a ubiquitous and a game-changer (3D printing, space travel, nanotech, biotech, AI etc.)

      • mario cavolo January 10, 2014, 10:13 am

        There are many more buttresses of growth across the globe Jason than the few you mentioned. Cheers, Mario

  • Zach January 6, 2014, 10:17 pm

    Meanwhile, if you, or Cowen or anyone else wants to try to refute Ricardo’s doctrine of comparative advantage, you’re welcome to try.

    It has been refuted many times by nations that had the pride and cojones to pursue mercantilist policies. By America when we had high tariffs prior to 1913. Tariffs that were the main funding for the Federal Gov’t. There was no income tax. Federal taxes on alcohol and tobacco were also important to the Federal Gov’t

    Asian nations have no use for David Ricardo. Japan, Korea, Taiwan, China climbed up the technological and manufacturing ladder by keeping out foreign imports and promoting their exports into America and other foreign nations which back then had the tech and manufacturing lead. Free trade doctrine is not believed by anyone except inside a few Anglo-libertarian nations. Libertarian in the sense that they pursue libertarian ideas on trade (Cato Institute is such a promoter) even if it dooms the nation. You will not find any free trade ideologues in Japan or Korea. They have nationalist pride which is easier in a mono-ethnic nation. The same pride that has them keeping jobs at home when it is possible.

    The Chinese Prime Minister said to George W Bush — “My biggest problem is helping our economy provide 20 million new jobs each year for the new people entering our workforce” This is to avoid social unrest because there is no welfare system in China. To keep and expand jobs in China the Prime Minister will be very happy when a Chinese company steals technology from an American company stupid enough to build a factory in China. Then starts manufacturing this item and exporting it to the suckers in America.

    • Rick Ackerman January 6, 2014, 11:58 pm

      Merely noting that some nations have ‘no use’ for free trade hardly refutes the doctrine of comparative advantage. Indeed, from a global, macroeconomic standpoint, the doctrine is irrefutable. Moreover, it is dangerous to ignore. Using China as an example, achieving dominance in manufacturing through protectionist policies has produced egregious trade imbalances that will someday come home to roost. China has effectively beggared those who now glut themselves with its exports. The result is that the paper they have taken in exchange for goods will someday be worthless. Under the circumstances, maybe it is they who are the suckers, not us.

  • mava January 6, 2014, 8:40 pm

    Andy, you mean to ask: “Why is it that we screw ourselves up with the government starting so long ago that we didn’t even have a sophisticated economy back then?”

    What can I say?

    But hey, I am not speculating what would it be without the government. I just mentioned that since we do, in fact, use the government, then we are doomed to periodic crises. That was all I said.

    This is the reality, we do have the government. So, I am simply showing how much we have left before the economic annihilation.

    • mava January 8, 2014, 10:41 pm

      Hi Andy, I have just come up with a better answer to your question. Sorry it is late in the discussion, but it may help. I will answer it with another question, to put things in perspective.

      Your question was:
      “When have we had a sophisticated economy without the presence of government?”

      My answer is:
      “When have we had a sophisticated economy without the presence of hookers?”

  • Andy Gutterman January 6, 2014, 7:18 pm

    Mava,

    I have a very simple question:

    When have we had a sophisticated economy without the presence of government?

    When I read comments about how this all works without government I cannot find anywhere in history that anyone had even a simple economy without government, so everything you write is just theoritical, and is never going to be tested. So why bother?

    We are all dealing in what is today, not some theoritical construct we will never experience.

    Andy

    • Rick Ackerman January 6, 2014, 8:41 pm

      Singapore comes pretty close, Andy. And Switzerland did — at least until relatively recently, when the government decided to trash the Swiss franc to save their export economy.

      Jack Wheeler once posed the question, Do you know who the president of Switzerland is? A ‘no’ answer from foreigners should be regarded as the gold standard for good government.

    • mario cavolo January 10, 2014, 10:11 am

      Indeed, Singapore a bastion of success and stability, a global titan and APAC rock.

      “The world should welcome the e-cigarette.” The Economist, March 2013.

      Singapore banned them. You can smoke tobacco there with its fifty times worse noxious disgusting smoke, but you can’t buy or smoke e-cigarettes. Since being banned in Singapore, the black market there in them has exploded. Fascinating sovereign lunacy across our globe.

      Cheers, Mario

      • VILE VLAD January 13, 2014, 11:26 pm

        Singapore is a rising bastion of intellectual repression, my friend, and I know this from personal experience. And this has nothing to do with caning, for I agree: all proven criminals should be beaten.

  • mava January 6, 2014, 6:48 pm

    The view that forecasting economic activity as a perpetuating continuity without crises does make sense, but it is misguided because it discounts the presence of the government. Without the government, there would be no reason to expect a crash.

    We are not talking a crisis that stops life itself from self-perpetuating, only a crisis that halts and restarts the economy. So, what is the condition (a necessary and sufficient condition) for economic continuation without a halt? It is that the economic output is redirected back to productive use first, to the degree necessary to produce as much, and only the remainder consumed. How can it be determined how much is enough and what use is a productive use?

    There is only one way known to man. The rule is that the he who makes less than he consumes must necessarily diminish his capital to the degree commensurate with his shortfall. In other words, there must be a consequence to whoever makes a mistake and consumes more than he is able to produce.

    Without the government, this condition holds. That is because the people are not going to share beyond the point where there is not enough capital to produce again.

    With the government, two things happen that disrupt this natural balance. The first thing that happens is, the government makes laws that impact the economy by obfuscating the economic opportunities. Some insignificant opportunities are promoted or even created (‘green’ cars) and as a result there is more capital spent on them than necessary or even spent where there should be none spent, and then the other opportunities are demoted (say, live-organ trade) and thus receive less capital.

    In a simplistic view of affairs the government obfuscates to “better the world”.

    The second thing that happens is that the government takes the cut out of production profit and this capital is completely destroyed. Andy argues in favor of taxes being higher in surplus years, forgetting that the government is not capable of determining where and how the saved capital should be employed — again, because there are no consequences to what the government does. Had the government not returned the surplus in the form of lower taxes, it would still not able to make good with it; for, not having to produce anything at all, the government is economically blind.

    Here, as a capitalist, I am commonly expected to argue that it is good that the government returned the surplus. I mean hey, my opponent, the socialist, argues that the government should have not returned the surplus. Shouldn’t I take the opposing point of view?

    But the thing of the matter is that once taken by the government, the capital is already forever destroyed, whether or not it is returned to the people as a whole. So, the second thing is that the government routinely destroys an arbitrary part of the capital, thus introducing yet another random variable (as if other factors didn’t introduce enough of randomness already); plus, by redistributing this to-be-destroyed capital, government frequently funds consumption (the burning down of capital) where otherwise the need for productive activity (capital creation) would be felt acutely .

    Thirdly (yes, I know, I said two thing happen), the government always runs the money scam on its population, denying it the true and tried measuring of capital expense and profit. As a result the prices of goods and services are not aligned with each other properly, meaning that the arcane math should be done to simply arrive at the bottom-line balance for any business activity. Many would argue with me on this point, thinking that they are able to estimate their business bottom line. They are mistaken, as is evident from their actual, cumulative bottom lines (i.e., retirees not able to live as they assumed they would be able to live).

    This last point is not listed as third, because theoretically, there is no hard link between the existence of the government and it running a monetary scam, as most people argue. It is only my own contention that the government necessarily exists to run the monetary scam.

    ======

    With all this being said, then how do we know if it is time for crisis? Quite simply, indeed. We look at three things and try to estimate if they are beyond the one third of possible range or not.

    Government regulation of economic activity. 0% regulation vs. 100% regulation. Where is it? I say about 70%.

    Government destruction of capital by taxation. 0% taxation vs. 100% taxation. Where is it? 17% of GDP for 2013, and mind you, do discount for GDP being significantly overblown ( http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/gross-domestic-product-charts ), meaning that it is more like 60%.

    Government destruction of reliable pricing by running the rubber dollar money scam? 0% to 100%? I would say about 98%.

    So, we have 70%+60%+98%=228/3=76% of economy is effectively destroyed. 24% remains, but anything over 50% is beyond of point of no return.

    The only question I ponder is how long before we eat through the remaining 24%. This question is not “if” by any means. It is a question of “when”.

    • Rick Ackerman January 6, 2014, 8:38 pm

      A great post! Thanks.

    • Mario January 10, 2014, 4:42 am

      Your best ever Mava! My brain, experiences and thinking process doesn’t result in my being able to create such writing, so noted with distinction.

      Cheers, Mario

      • Cam Fitzgerald January 10, 2014, 10:29 am

        I agree, that was interesting Mava. I enjoyed how you came up with a mathematical formula to prove the economy is already in ruins due to how capital is being destroyed through taxation.

  • Rich January 6, 2014, 6:36 pm

    Nice essay on projection A.
    Are you the Avocado in HI who likes chocolate?
    Politics has been for the top 10%, so there is an opportunity for a Libertarian revolution this year if the 90% vote for a change.
    Long puts on overvalued Equity long calls>puts sentiment and undervalued ETF/Index long puts>calls sentiment.
    http://www.ise.com/market-data/isee-index/
    Seems like the loudest people since 2007 are bulls.
    Regards all*Rich

    • Andy Gutterman January 6, 2014, 11:31 pm

      No. I’m in Virginia. Developer of software for used and rare booksellers, as well as being a bookseller myself for the last 27 years. Hence the bottom of the income percentile.

      Fred is the engineer/programmer who writes the code for the software. My wife and I did the design, although she hasn’t been doing much of that lately.

      I do sales, support and testing. This is our 19th year in business, and I’m thinking this year we finally will make decent money at it. So in a way I want the circus to go on as long as possible. I need at least Japanese style economics (last 20 years) to maintain income.

      A full blown depression won’t help me at all. So I’m all for finding some way to get perpetual motion in our economy.

      Andy

      • VILE VLAD January 9, 2014, 9:49 am

        rick, let me ask….

        &&&&&

        Interesting coincidence, Vlad, since I had a long phone conversation with RBA just yesterday. When you provide me with a valid email address, that’s when I’ll consider requests like this one. Meanwhile, let me state that this is the last time I will ask you for a good address. Henceforth, anything you post that is properly the subject of a private communication will never see daylight. RA

  • rickj January 6, 2014, 6:00 pm

    As to the trigger point that ends this debt fantasy world, I think it will be the repatriation of the $ held worldwide as either cash or bonds/treasuries. When all this paper is redeemed for “stuff” then the price of the stuff will go up rapidly in US currency as everyone frantically exchanges paper for real goods, driving up the price of real goods in the West and making extension of the debt creation game impossible unless it be denominated in a currency judged to be of worth. Once you are the only buyer of your debt it is endgame and this is very close already.
    Who is to say what the fed is really buying each month and how much of it. They already admit to buying most of the requirement for financing guv themselves.
    Since the repeal of Glass-Steagal, banks do not need us to do well. It is easier to steal than lend in terms of creating profit. What does it say when the entire West allows its banks to do well via extraction of wealth from the people.
    If banks can only lend, then they can only do well if we do well.

    • Rick Ackerman January 6, 2014, 6:09 pm

      Just so, Rick. It’s scary in the meantime to contemplate a financial world whose appetite for dollars remains all but insatiable. That’s because the dollar is, and will remain, the only ‘money’ in adequate supply to facilitate the bankers’ quadrillion-dollar shell game.

      • VILE VLAD January 8, 2014, 7:19 am

        of course. just look at my argentina’s ‘corralito,’ by uber-insider cristina kuchy-kuchy kutchner. so, no treasured usa fiat dollars allowed to leave the país, here, from the old gaucho haciendas, and evita’s buenos aires. for, if they catch you trying to get your usa bucks, out of the nación, they hang you by your toes, ’til dead. ergo–all third world countries still adore, the usa fiat dollar. as hard as that is to be believed by you spoiled ussa kids, that practically already live, under 21st century martial law. so ‘wake up. and get real.’ as jack said. for you all blather endlessly, tripe, and it means nothing. nothing at all. it matters nothing. your opinion means nothing. zero. all that matters is to get ready, as best you can. for it’s ah ‘comin. whether now, or a year from now, as rick now predicts. but the deck is all full, already. record everything, in irrational exuberance. so, any day now. booom. idiot party over. and you are all ussa indentured servants, overnight. so wake up. and get real. and get ready.

      • VILE VLAD January 8, 2014, 7:54 am

        I see you don’t have the guts, to do a serious study next week,
        of all possible impeachment reasons for your beloved dictator-president.
        Know why? Because no one believes in the usa constitution anymore, including you.
        so it’s no longer pertinent, to discuss something, that is no longer respected, or upheld.

        &&&&&&

        Yeah, that’d be me all right: editorially gutless, eager to defend Obama, and oblivious to the shredding of the Constitution.

        I suggest that you do the impeaching, in a guest commentary next week (but in your very best prose; if it reads like your usual stuff — i.e., like something that a fifth grader with a bad case of Tourette’s wrote — I won’t publish it). If I hear nothing back from you (or from Cam, who promised me a commentary on the coming pension bust), the current topic will stand for another week. RA

      • VILE VLAD January 9, 2014, 12:18 am

        DAMN, rick. just how did you know I had a bad case of tourette’s, since I was in grade school? (but actually, not from the 5th, it was from the 3rd on). and I got kicked out of several spanish catholic schools because of it, for saying very dirty things to the younger nuns (specially to the ones without mustaches). hey, my name ain’t VILE, for nothing.

        I am not qualified to write an impeachment article on your commie dictator-president.
        but trust me on this, if I was qualified, I would write it, since I loath the bugger.
        so, if you yourself are not qualified to do so, nor have time for this task, then,
        I challenge your many erudite blog ‘usual suspects’, to provide one, for you.
        possibly redwill, will be up to the task. for he knows plenty about ussa politics.
        as I think it is important to study this process, solely of lost usa constitutionality.

        &&&&&

        Let me get back to you about your interesting, on-topic opus, Vlad. I’ve been swamped today but should be able to get some actual work done tomorrow. I may run your long post as a fresh commentary, but perhaps as part of this discussion.

        I don’t want to tackle the impeachment topic myself because of what Bob Prechter once told my friend Chris Carolan — that politics is a non-starter for guys in the guru business. That, and the fact that what I really think about Obama is w-a-a-a-y beyond the pale of civil discourse.. RA

      • Mario January 10, 2014, 4:35 am

        Come on Vlad! I bet that if you set aside your self indulging narcissistic antics and focused that zany, insightful genius brain of yours for an hour you could crank out an article well worth reading for Rick to publish.

        I don’t know a damn thing about China and he published several of mine !, should be a piece of cake for you.

        Step up. Do something new, fresh, different, out of character, push your envelope. Pleeeaaasssseeee?

    • John Jay January 6, 2014, 6:29 pm

      rickj,

      As more and more Americans are forced to move back home or some such thing, they will also be forced to spend whatever they earn for basic life support needs, i.e. food, shelter, water, heat and power.
      Fewer and fewer will have less and less to spend on anything else. Retail is already dying a slow death, Sears and JCP are on the ropes.
      Detroit might very well become the new normal.
      America as the dumping ground for the world’s exports may just fade away.

      We grow enough food here, we are using less energy every year, and textile/clothing shops are returning to the South, only heavily mechanized with 80% less employees needed.
      When the 90% are forced to live a Very Simple Lifestyle here, this export market door will slam shut forever. So that will make it hard for anyone to start charging outrageous prices for things we make here and don’t need to buy abroad.
      That is one scenario, I can imagine other outcomes as well.
      Time will tell.

    • Cam Fitzgerald January 10, 2014, 10:14 am

      Interestingly enough Rickj, those dollars are indeed getting recycled but not necessarily always to where most people imagine. The Chinese are busy buying up land, commodities, resources and production here in Africa at a frenzied pace these past few years.

      They are building roads, dams, railways and bridges in an effort to cobble the continent together in a coherant way that will promote their own trade interests but in the process contracts for construction are also being let to European firms. There is something of a virtous circle from that perspective where the Chinese finance a dam, railway or new university but the Italians or Germans actually build it.

      Keep in mind that these initiatives are not generally being done with Yuan though. The activities are financed in dollars because that is what everyone wants and they have been in short supply here since forever. The Chinese also happen to have quite a hoard of them at their disposal. It is a match made in heaven. But is also noteworthy that the dollar continues to be the Lingua Franca of the trading world and it is how more than 85% of all currency transactions are still processed.

      We also need to keep in mind that China is now the worlds second largest importer. That is a fact that is often overlooked in all the discussions about lost jobs and US consumption patterns of Asian produced goods. Over here the Chinese are taking a keen interest in the import of live animals, honey, grains, textiles, coffee, cocoa, copper, plastics and electronics.

      That might come as a shock to some people.

      China in fact imports billions upon billions of dollars worth of electronics, components and related equipment from across the globe though. This despite their powerhouse capabilities in manufacturing. Fact is, it is simply more advantageous for them to buy from either low wage jurisdictions where labour is a big factor or from established Western producers who can deliver quality or have a technological advantage.

      Think computer chips from the US, control systems from Germany, Avionics from France or assembled boards and components from Africa’s or South America’s poorest nations as a few examples. It is almost a myth that the only thing China imports are raw commodities for their own plants.

      I think this is part of why they are having so much success in Africa. They have encouraged their own manufacturers to open facilties here to produce everything from shoes to shirts to autoparts and construction supplies. In turn most of the production is exported back to China itself. Processed food destined for Asia is currently a very large growing trend as Africa, due its past poverty and lack of industrialization is still quite clean.

      Organics of all kinds are readily available here as there is little history of the use of pesticides, herbicides, fertilizers or other chemical interventions on the land.

      Getting back to the point though, those dollars are already being actively traded for “stuff” every single day. It is just not obvious to readers back in the US who don’t always have a view as to what is happening elsewhere.

      Why this is important though is because the whole continent is on a fast track to development (despite what you might have seen in the news). Those dollars that flow in for development projects and transportation are recycled right back out in the form of demand for much needed construction supplies and consumer goods that are now flowing in from around the globe.

      It is a win-win really. Keeps the wheels of industry turning elsewhere and it keeps the goods flowing where they are needed most. Africa gets a lot of lip service lately and it is now on the agenda at the board room level. What is happening here has still not really percolated through to the general public who continue to have outdated notions of what the continent and its 54 countries are really doing these days.

      Dollars play a huge role in the process though. If they come flooding back to the US from here it is probably going to be in the form of aircraft purchases, autos and other goods Americans produce. So that is a net benefit.

  • rickj January 6, 2014, 5:28 pm

    Amongst my friends, the ones with the most income are the ones most resistant to hearing anything about the train wreck in the economy. They are also the most self- absorbed and have the least amount of pity for the plight of their children, (ie the exportation of their jobs)
    One is a very senior, brilliant doctor who speaks all over the world in his area of specialty. Yet he is totally ignorant as to where wealth comes from.

  • Andy Gutterman January 6, 2014, 5:21 pm

    Fred responded to my last posting with:

    “It would be a more effective exercise if you were to list any positive factors that are out there… and there have to be.”

    What are they?

    Andy

  • Zach January 6, 2014, 4:51 pm

    I agree with Vegas Bob. His first two paragraphs on tech and automation creating a neo-feudal society like Brazil. With 85% living at the bottom. Tyler Cowen wrote about this approvingly as in let them eat beans. So the mask comes off about all the idiotic open borders theorizing he does. http://isteve.blogspot.com/2013/10/tyler-cowen-90-of-americans-will-and.html Tyler C falls somewhere in the self-admitted autism spectrum. Free trade and open borders policies emanating from Washington DC were a large factor in the destruction of the great American middle class. Marx would have been happy to see capitalism destroying itself. The rise of Chinese/Asian low cost manufacturing was always going to be a large factor. But the political hacks in DC accelerated all these economy destroying trends. Oh, the economy in DC is always great so what do they care.

    When I saw idiots in various southern states trying to outbid each other to bring in Datsun/Nissan and Toyota plants I knew this was a nation without pride. When would a Japan or South Korea ever do such things? America fought ww2 as a unified nation and this carried forward for 30 or so years. Over and done I suppose with all the racial stuff going ….in a zero sum economic game affirmative action can be lethal to you.

    • Rick Ackerman January 6, 2014, 5:30 pm

      Adam Smith would say, correctly, that foreign competition would not have mattered nearly as much if we’d saved and invested rather than consumed. We’d be exporting great cars to S Korea that are produced for $6000 and sell for there for $10,000.

      Meanwhile, if you, or Cowen or anyone else wants to try to refute Ricardo’s doctrine of comparative advantage, you’re welcome to try.

  • Galt January 6, 2014, 3:35 pm

    I read an article last week that they flew a fighter jet (in the UK?) with a part or some parts made by a 3D printer. What impact will 3D printing have on US manufacturing (what’s left of it) in the future?

    • Rick Ackerman January 6, 2014, 5:11 pm

      In theory, it could displace, for one, the Chinese sweat shops where Nike sneakers are made. Not that that would necessarily hurt Nike, since you’d pay them a fat royalty for the ‘Jordan’ algorithm that instructs your printer. 3D printers could also provide a way back for Radio Shack or a successor, since we’d be living in a do-it-yourself world where hardware stores would sell mainly raw materials.

      • VILE VLAD January 7, 2014, 8:54 am

        I do not agree with what you say above, ackerman, re chinese nike, jordan.

        IMO, you have no clue, on how the chinese easily duplicate all ‘trademark’ goods,
        and for a pittance, of their ‘original’ brand names, in all types, of world merchandise.
        IMO, you are naive in 3rd world matters, rick. though you are wise, in usa matters.

        I will teach you. think black market. think no patents. think, copy all free.
        no rules. of law. or anything. that’s what’s coming. and the chinese lead the pack.
        why? simple. there are a lot of them. and they are hungry. hungrier than americans.
        plus, they want–revenge. for laughable decades of, ‘made in china.’ do you get it?

        wake up. what is going on in world, is deeper, than you think. and you are a good thinker.
        recommend you stop thinking by the rules. for what is coming, will have no rules. for sure.

      • Mario January 10, 2014, 4:26 am

        Rick? Why would anyone put forth out of left field that you are ignorant of reality in China?

        It’s common old news knowledge that China copies everything, etc. Somehow I don’t think Rick missed that, even if he hadn’t read any of my China musings posted here for the past three years.

        It’s not coming Vlad, its been happening for two decades. Clue up!

  • Andy Gutterman January 6, 2014, 3:24 pm

    An update:

    So let’s look at where we are today. EVERYONE: Let’s leave politics out of this!

    We all have the same information, yet depending on which group you are in you either see doom or not.

    1. We didn’t save for a rainy day. (Keynes had it right. Save the surplus to spend later. We embraced the spending side but not the saving.)

    2. Any hint of savings were passed back to the taxpayer in the form of declining tax rates. In the end the last big tax cuts overwhelmingly favored the haves over the have nots. (See Romney for an understanding of some of this.)

    3. Not only did we not save, but for the last 45 years we purposely spent more than we took in. And it wasn’t just government doing this, but the entire population. Spend your future income NOW.

    4. We got addicted to credit, to the point where without credit we cannot move forward.

    5. Various elements of society are doing their best to get anyone not already in debt to their eyeballs to borrow to the max. Students, bad credit/income people buying cars on credit, mass mailings of financial offers to borrow more money and spend more money. (I’m in that part of town that is targeted by these institutions)

    6. Because of the above the economy is now locked into slow growth mode. 1.5% to 2.5% annual growth. Sometimes a lot less, or even negative. Not enough growth to pay down the debt, even if we wanted to. As is stands now, we don’t even want to think about it.

    7. The country is severely divided between the haves and have nots. The most extreme inequality ever experienced in modern times, exceeding even the sky-high inequality seen just prior to the Great Depression.

    8. A large part of the population sees trouble ahead, a far smaller part of the population does not. The part that does not happens to be in control. They also are a part of the haves.

    9. So WHERE does the money come from to finance all the promises we’ve made to ourselves over the last 45 years?

    10. Some facts. Today we are the most armed nation in history, and we are also the most imprisoned nation in history. Those that have the arms are not those who are in prison. We have a very large number of people who but for the Grace of Government would starve, and very fast. We also have the most polarized society in history, but the polarization is not between the haves and have nots, but between those who want to solve the problem and those that don’t. Those that don’t want to solve the problem vote to keep the status quo, even though the majority of them are getting hurt by it. Those that do want to solve the problem vote for change, but because of those who do not want change the country is unable to move forward. (The ACA is a product of this mentality. It may work, but if it doesn’t its going to fail spectacularly, and may push the economy towards doom. And even if it does work its going to squeeze the economy anyway. Money spent on insurance is not spent elsewhere.)

    11. Some more facts. All of the policies, regulations and laws put in place after the Great Depression so as to not repeat history were repealed in the last 15 years. So the world is back to where it was prior to the Great Depression, yet the policy makers do not see that as being part of the problem.

    We are stuck. No apparent solution.

    Yet here is the dichotomy. Most of the haves think we will solve the problem and move forward, without doom. The have nots have a far different view.

    Who is right?

    Andy

    • VegasBob January 6, 2014, 11:59 pm

      Andy,

      In my comment above, I confessed to being one of the “haves.” I also support fixing the problems, though it would cost me plenty.

      It should be obvious to all that, at some point, this smoke and mirrors economy will fall apart and that we will have restructuring.

      But most members of the wealthy class, including both conservatives and liberals, will NEVER voluntarily relinquish any portion of their wealth to fix any of the structural problems in our economy. This is because having money creates a sense of entitlement among the lucky few who have accumulated significant wealth.

      Most members of my class actually believe that they deserve their wealth and that they have some sort of superior investing gene or a work ethic that has allowed them to accumulate their wealth. That’s occasionally true though I think it’s mostly nonsense, but it’s how most wealthy people view their status in life. In my case, I view my accumulation of wealth as the result of good luck more than anything else, though it does take some element of good decision-making to keep the wealth and not squander it.

      At any rate, I expect the Fed to print to the point of oblivion. I could be wrong, but I think Yellen will be printing $150 billion a month before she goes below the allegedly current rate of $75 billion a month.

      As such, my view is that since the money-printing will be endless, collapse and restructuring will come only when there is a loss of confidence in the fiat dollar. When that happens, the Depression of the 1930s will look like a mild recession.

    • Mario January 10, 2014, 4:19 am

      Andy thanks. The economy is “sort of in some key ways” back to what it was before the Great Depression. In numerous and diverse ways, the economy of America and the world are entirely different, therefore I might suggest, far less predictable, our collective dilemma.

      Cheers, Mario

  • VILE VLAD January 6, 2014, 8:44 am

    Click here for a chart that will jolt you back to your senses. “The Public Panics into Stocks.” That’s the headline on this free Elliott Wave article. Current 2013 latecomer intake of cash into the U.S. stock market is the highest it’s been in at least seven years, including the 2007 top.

    Hmmm.

    Also, highest margin debt ever. And the highest peak for shadow-banking loans — even above 2007. With a backdrop of worst-ever European deflation and depression.

    The top is near. When you least expect it. Your ATM is closed.

    • gary leibowitz January 6, 2014, 7:13 pm

      Vlad, I agree with your data but no your conclusion. We would need another contraction in credit for your scenario to come true. Deflation will not be seen as long as lenders are on a loosening mode and borrowers are willing to add to their debt. The savings rate is higher than it was right before the crash, even though it is dismal compared to other nations.

      You will not have a crash when the consumer spending reached the highest since 2008. Gallop poll just came out to confirm this. This is also why Rick’s assumption for another 1,000 DOW points higher should pan out.

      Mass surge in confidence and plunging back into stocks is a reason why we should have a decent enough correction in 2014 to scare people out of complacency. The verdict is just not in yet that it would be anything other than a cyclical bear market.

      The notion that debt has overwhelmed the system is just not there. You can’t have a GDP rising, spending rising, factory output rising, service sector rising in such a scenario. The bailout for homeowners, low rates, and relatively low inflation has allowed money to flow back into the consumers pocket without the wage component rising. If wages stay low than there will be a tipping point.

      The other notion that jobs are being destroyed due to new technology and outsourcing, has not yet shown to be true.

      I agree we are near a top of some sort. I do not see deflation pressures, credit contraction, or contraction in wages and jobs yet. Overvalued stock market for sure. I will still stick to the naïve notion that a cyclical bear market will hit in the second year of the Presidential term. This is the most likely year where politicians make the unpopular but necessary adjustments. Tapering should continue as long as we get the economic numbers we have in the past 4 months.

      My arguments keep getting shunned and ignored after the 5th year of a skeptical recovery. I never stated the recovery would be normal. It was ideal for corporate earnings though. It also allowed the disastrous housing market to recover slowly, and more importantly for asset values to also recover. All this with a huge trade-off. Forcing rates below free market float has calmed lenders and borrowers fears, but at a price. When and if we manage to escape the huge imbalance on the governments balance sheet remains to be seen. I for one think our luck will not last long enough for that to happen.

      • redwilldanaher January 9, 2014, 4:44 am

        QE failed to help the folks as we all know:
        http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2014-01-08/clear-evidence-qe-fails-produce-jobs

        Just a ZH bit:
        The US Consumer Is So Strong, Macy’s Just Fired 2500 And Announced The Closure Of Five Stores
        Submitted by Tyler Durden on 01/08/2014 – 16:11

        Chicanery recovery.

      • VILE VLAD January 9, 2014, 9:34 am

        CONGRATULATIONS, GARY! for after, supposedly, being banned for 2 whole years,
        you have run through rick’s ip gaunlet, IN LESS THAN A WEEK, to post me this. [Annoying as he can be, Gary is just too nice a guy for me to ban. RA]

        and here is my reply. what you write me is sensible. even more sensible, than usual.
        and you have been dead right, about the current fake bull market, for several years.
        so I will not argue with you. for I have been dead wrong, for a few years. a fact.
        however, I’ll tell you how I see you, besides you being a card-carry commie ‘tonto-útil’.
        you project always, similar conditions, again and again, into time immemorial.
        and give no credence, to biggest debt pic of all. in other words, you revere your fed.
        so do you have pics of bernanke, on your home walls, and bow down to them, daily?
        anyway, enough. however, I will add this. and a slip of the tongue from you, IMO—

        “When and if we manage to ESCAPE THE HUGE IMBALANCE on the governments balance sheet remains to be seen. I for one think OUR LUCK WILL NOT LAST ENOUGH for that to happen.”
        (CAPS MINE).

        first of all, ‘luck’ does not exist, it is a myth. and a myth created, from self excuses.
        for every existant creates his own ‘luck’ by his survival choices. period. end of story.

        however, your choice of words, ‘ESCAPE’ and acknowledged ‘HUGE IMBALANCE’,
        are more interesting. so maybe we can yet make a laissez-faire capitalist of you.
        thus save your sorry commie arse. so you prepare for you and family. and the heck with all else.

    • Rich January 6, 2014, 7:32 pm

      Welcome back VV
      Does look like at least a temporary top with bank/broker deposit haircuts
      Time will tell

      &&&&&&

      Vlad is indeed back, Rich. But he is being very heavily edited, if not to say rewritten. RA

      • Rich January 7, 2014, 1:42 am

        Better a little than a lack
        And a prosperous New Year to all on the short side

    • Mario January 10, 2014, 4:15 am

      Oh how I’ve missed you two while busy this past week.

      Gary hits the mark of reasonableness here. The system is intricately GLOBAL gents. To use an apt metaphor,
      the economic power shift eastward is a rising tsunami after a western oceanic earthquake. They coexist. Thankfully.

  • John Jay January 6, 2014, 5:06 am

    I predict a relentless grind down into poverty for more and more Americans as the economy continues to shift to part time, no-benefits employment. Probably no great crash, just a death by a thousand cuts. Most Americans already live paycheck to paycheck, so those in a carefree state of economic bliss will continue to shrink as time goes on.

    Now, for what I feel are two great summations of the economic and social State of the Union, I submit two comments from Zerohedge for your approval.

    On the Economy:

    “ejmoosa 
    Home Depot, Darling of the DOW, earned 5.838 billion in 2005, and traded at a high of $44
    Home Depot, Darling of the DOW, earned 5.330 billion(est) in 2013 and traded at a high of $82.57 last week.
     
    When will they actually start earning MORE money? (I will not even mention how their debt has risen from 2.445 billion to 14.700 billion)”

    On our American Society:

    “Tsukato 
    I agree with this writer wholeheartedly, but then I look at the masses and see walking, eating, f***** garbage, that deserves what it gets. I already left America 15 years ago, and have set myself up well. Any thinking person could have seen this mess coming long ago. Maybe it’s just Darwinism.”

    The numbers speak for themselves in the first comment.

    I am beginning to agree with the outlook in the second comment as College/Pro Football Frenzy consumes the masses yet again!

    You can’t fix stupid, so stop Waiting for Godot, and as Rick suggests, concentrate on “Improving your life”.

    Great advice!

    • redwilldanaher January 6, 2014, 9:04 pm

      Hi JJ,

      several years ago in one of my many foolish moments spent refuting the guy who hasn’t been around here over the past week or so, I made the argument that if we did hit new highs in the indices they’d be nominal.

      Well, considering the content of your comments and the fact that the everyman antagonist is probably lurking about, I thought this link would be well worth the read:

      Nominal. Illusion.

      http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-01-06/terms-real-stuff-dows-new-high-pure-illusion

      &&&&&

      The fascinating article you’ve linked is by our friend and colleague Charles Hugh-Smith. The discussion that follows, which includes some negative comments on the bitcoin fad, is well worth a read. RA

      • John Jay January 7, 2014, 4:51 am

        Rick,
        Everyone is making very well thought out points.
        However…………………….
        Janet has just been called up from the bullpen and takes the mound February 1st!
        However……………………
        Janet has just one pitch, the same pitch Ben had.
        And that pitch is………………….
        “Smoke”, as it were!
        Yes, Janet will “Throwing (and talking) Smoke” for her term.
        I hear she is working with Sandy Koufax on a change up pitch though.
        It is called…………………..
        “Mirrors”!

        And on that note, please allow me to spin a baseball story which many swear to be true.

        A Major League pitcher, who was having a bad time of it with the bases loaded and no one out, and facing a long ball hitter at the plate.
        The manager walked out to the mound and began to lecture the pitcher on how to get the batter out.
        Exasperated, the pitcher tossed the ball to the manager, and said………………….
        “Here, you know so f***n much, you get him out!”

      • VILE VLAD January 7, 2014, 8:22 am

        I wrote this kind of stuff here two years ago, explaining, with historical charts,
        that gold was supremely overvalued, when it had already ‘crashed’, to 1600+ area,
        and I clearly explained, to all the gold bugs herein, including you, the host,
        that gold was still supremely overvalued, according to the only true measure of it there is,
        and that is the usa CPI, consumer price index; ergo, gold’s true ‘purchasing power.’

        I said that, historically, over several decades of usa time, including inflationary 70’s,
        the gold/cpi ratio never went over 2.2, even at its most extreme, except—
        in the insane mania times, of the 2010’s, where it rose to crazy froth level, of 4.5-5 ratio.

        therefore, I still say the same obvious same, that gold at 1200+ usa dollars, is still way overpriced,
        for it needs to get back to at least 800+ dollar area, to even be a a normal gold/cpi top range.
        (and of course, 800+ should also be strong resistance, since that was 1980’s top area).

        this is all extremely boring. for I noted this 2 years ago, when gold was at 1600+.
        and gold is now at 1200+. yawn. still extremely boring.
        for when usa stock crash finally hits, soon, it will drop to 800+, like a rock.

        however, I will tell you my final opinion on this matter, of ‘true’ money, a.k.a. gold.

        I myself would not buy gold, until it hits 200+ usd area, the bottom of early 21st century.
        and in the depth of the forthcoming deflationary depression, soon coming to you,
        even that, will be a risk, to buy a tiny ounce of gold, for 2 hundred+ great fiat usa dollars.
        haha.
        because your goods/services daily provider, will want those 200+ fiat dollars,
        more than a crummy ounce of a shiny tiny yellow metal (plus possibly ‘fool’s gold’).

        my bottomline opinion.

        don’t buy coin-stamped gold again, until it hits again, 200+ usa dollars an ounce.

        if you are still alive by then, of course. as we all will mostly be dead, due to—
        DEVASTATING OVERNIGHT WORLD DEFLATION, BEYOND YOUR SIMPLE-MINDED IMAGININGS.

        &&&&&

        Not sure if I qualify as a gold bug, Vlad, having once raised the point here that the Krugerrand some would hoard to barter for a loaf of bread may command only half a loaf when unimaginably hard times come.

        Also, I don’t so much cheer-lead gold as simply forecast its price. RA

      • Jason S January 8, 2014, 8:07 pm

        VV,

        Does the fact that the BLS has radically changed how the CPI is generated impact your analysis? If it was calculated today the same as it was in 1980, it would be about 8% and if it was calculated as it was back in 1990 it would be about 5%.

        We know what the mathematical formulas and basket of goods were at those times so John White’s numbers are legit.

        http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/inflation-charts

      • VILE VLAD January 9, 2014, 12:12 pm

        jason, to answer your changed cpi 3% differential question, between ’80 and ’90,
        I have no answer. however, it was interesting to read your shadowstat chart link.
        and find it odd that an only 3% differential, can cause such large difference, in chart.

        the basis of my original comment was on a great chart I saw, about 2 years ago.
        and its appended article. however, there was no mention in it, of 3% difference.
        the chart went back to the early 70’s, and the top gold/cpi % figure, was 2.2.
        and this 2.2 in the extremely inflationary 70’s. because usual correlation, was 1.1.

  • Andy B January 6, 2014, 4:52 am

    I figure “positive” or “negative” outlook has mostly to do with the wealth levels, along with psychological background. Most of us have outlooks that are hard to change overnight. Where did they come from? How are they maintained? Are they flexible? This points to conditioning.

    Our day-to-day economic analysis is probably much less important than the two factors above: “Don’t believe what you think.”

  • Redwilldanaher January 6, 2014, 4:29 am

    I’ll let the gang have a field day with this week’s topic but I do have a few related items.

    1. When things are this FUBARed I don’t think that the onus rests on the skeptics. My argument for why the fantasy can continue amounts to: that’s the trend, they’ve pulled it off for a long time, they can change, kill, edit, ignore the laws/rules. But with things this many standard deviations into FUBARDOM, I think the onus is on the sunshine boys to make a cogent argument how it doesn’t ever tip over.

    2. As you note, the cbo as with all gubmint shills is a bad joke. They may look ok once in a while if they are standing next to a NAR economist or Brian Wesbury but otherwise…

    • VegasBob January 6, 2014, 9:53 am

      I’m probably what most on this board would consider “wealthy,” but my outlook for the future is fundamentally negative, because I think we’ve reached the point where technological advances now destroy more jobs than they create.

      We are using technology to create a neo-feudal society, with a small cohort of wealthy nobility, a slightly larger contingent of knights who serve the interests of the nobility, and masses of impoverished peasants, who will ultimately comprise 85-90% of the population.

      Maybe I’m wrong, but I just don’t see how impoverished masses who comprise 90% of the population can possibly keep a consumer-based economy humming along at 4%+ growth rates.

      The Federal Reserve runs a fairly straightforward money-printing scam that it calls quantitative easing, though it is the moral equivalent of counterfeiting and/or forgery.

      When the Fed can conjure up trillions of dollars out of nothing with a few mouse clicks on a computer in order to “buy” government bonds and thus cover the government’s hot checks, I have to ask myself what constitutes real “wealth.” Regardless of the dollar-denominated price, I have great difficulty believing that grossly overpriced stocks or bonds or houses represent actual “wealth.” That kind of wealth is just an illusion. And, there is no real wealth to be found in silly time wasters like Facebook and Twitter.

      That said, I also think that this dog and pony show will continue until a critical mass of of the population stands up and shouts that “the emperor has no clothes.”

      That is unlikely, because most people prefer delusion to reality and our schools no longer teach anything other than how to conform, follow orders, and avoid actual thinking. Add to that the government’s police-state spy network, which is designed to prevent uprisings, and I don’t see why this smoke and mirrors economy cannot continue indefinitely.

      After all, even when our nation has borrowed money to the point that debt-service consumes more than 100% of national income, the Fed will just run the printing presses overtime and print up whatever quantities of counterfeit digital dollars are necessary to paper over the problem.

      • Rich January 6, 2014, 7:58 pm

        Agree JJ and VB

        The majority of Americans complain about Corporate Union DC Parties, but do not vote, refusing to pick the lesser of two evils

        Every now and then there is a real candidate who deserves support for Constitutional government, even as the machine attacks, slanders and smears

        http://usnvrepcan.blogspot.com/

      • Mario January 10, 2014, 3:55 am

        Hi Vegas Bob and all, what a great thread!

        Perspective and accuracy is mandatory. For example, Vegas Bob I love your comments BUT….

        “Impoverished masses who comprise 90% of the population can…” throws it off track.

        It’s not 90%, is more like 60%, the other 40% are doing fine in the new world.

        Secondly, consider the global picture not just your home country. If USA is growing at 2 percent, Europe flat, Asia/China at 7 percent, that’s growth. Don’t forget how massive Asia/China is. Don’t forget that USA manufacturing is on the rise, that exports to China are at record levels and continue rising, that reshoring to America is happening. That America has a new oil boom.

        You know me here, I am NOT being rosy. I, we, all fully understand that a particular group of people have been in decline, ruined, by the combined forces at play, the American lower/middle class. I am only reminding there are positive and negative forces at play. I lean to the positive side as a matter of daily attitude to keep observing and moving forward as best as possible with an as realistic as possible understanding of the circumstances we have to work with. Come what may, crash may come and who’s to say how? There’s are many ways in the intricately complex global stream pipe system that a pipe blows releasing pressure, causing damage. It doesn’t necessarily mean the entire system will be destroyed. We have indications of who how what where when why but we don’t have a clue.

        Cheers, Mario
        Third,

    • rickj January 6, 2014, 5:42 pm

      I too find it difficult to understand how anyone can argue that “we” get through this ok. Obviously the “we” who will get through are a very small group who care nothing for concepts such as freedom and nationhood.
      They forget that they and their kids need a safe,strong country that values freedom and understands that freedom and security is a result of a strong, wealth creating economy and a population that adheres to a strong moral code as opposed to what we have today.
      The elite are concerned with money and power only.
      Imo, the last act of this play commenced the day Nixon declared an end to international dollar/gold convertibility, announcing that “We are all Keynesians, now. ……might as well have said We all FUBAR now.