Ahead of Obummercare Disaster: Toga! Toga!

Although we’d intended to promote a discussion of the Fukushima disaster here this week, perhaps it would be better to feature comedy rather than tragedy before we plunge into darkness, since “Japan’s problem” could soon mutate into the most serious problem the world has ever faced.  In the spirit of a Delta Tau Chi toga party, then, let us take a few more playfully sadistic whacks at Obummercare — especially since the mainstream media have been doing such a lousy job of it.  Reading The New York Times, The Washington Post and other left/liberal news sources, one might get the impression that once the computer glitches are fixed, Obummercare will cruise to success. To the contrary, we believe the problems inflicted on America by the Affordable Care Act  (ACA) will only get worse. Much worse. For, once the dust has settled, it’s likely that the impact of  “The Worst Bill Ever” on the healthcare delivery system will make the current, computer-glitch phase seem like a romp in the park.

To kick off this week’s discussion, some observations and predictions:

  • We still believe the ACA will collapse all by itself, but that the process unfortunately will take too long to spare the U.S. economy from deepest recession.
  • Not only will Republicans not be blamed for this, Ted Cruz will eventually be hailed as a hero. It is only in the dreams of a left-tilting, protect-the-king-at-all-costs press that voters would remember the government shutdown, let alone Obummercare-related snafus, as “problems” caused by Republicans.
  • Obama, continuing his tenure as the worst American president in U.S. history, will take blame for nothing, as always .  To be perfectly clear, however, so cynical are we about the electorate that we believe Obama would be re-elected to a third term were it possible for him to run again.
  • Although the economy eventually will recover from the bunker-busting implosionary force of Obummercare, the healthcare system will not.  Doctors will continue desert Medicare and Medicaid, and a whole generation of would-be doctors will pursue other careers that do not promise to make them the indentured servants of Big Government.
  • As a result, medical care will be rationed as never before. Unless you can afford to pay cash, you’ll wait months, rather than days or weeks, to see a physician for problems that are not life-threatening.

What say you, readers?

  • DK November 2, 2013, 9:10 am

    The irony here is, Ted Cruz is just like the rest of ’em, in my opinion. I can wait for him to show his real colors when the next step for immigration “reform” takes place. Along with Cantor, Rand, Boehner, and the rest of that scum.
    Give ’em the boot!

  • DK November 2, 2013, 6:17 am

    Re: Ted Cruz

    Good ole Sean Penn
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C0RWxSmRbc

    Committing Ted Cruz to a mental institution by Executive Order? HA!
    Does anyone seriously take Spicoli seriously? Undoubtedly many Liberals do.

  • dst November 1, 2013, 6:08 pm

    I live in a province where we have had 100 % “free” medicare since 1961. Today all services covered it cost our gov’t 4,000 per year per resident. That includes “old age” (health care home visits,public health services, everything.)
    2nd and 3rd level seniors care where it is about $4,500 per month per person. I want hip replacement i get it i need heart transplant . NO extra costs. Our management costs for a health region cannot exceed 5% of the total cost of that regions costs (federal law). Example our Region has a cost to run it of about $225,000,000/ yr. for about 56,000 people, the CEO of the region makes approx. $215,000.00. (In the USA what would a CEO make to run the same $1/2 to $1million?) I sat on the board (public) I know the costs. In the USA managers take 17% of the total bill. I see well to due , rich white anglo saxons bitching about this bill by the readings i view the past 18 months.

    &&&&&&

    Unusual for one of your comments to pass muster in this forum, Dennis. Have those fabulous Canadian healthcare benefits perhaps brought some much-needed Prozac into your life?
    RA

  • mario cavolo October 31, 2013, 4:08 pm

    Gang, I’ve been trading all along these years, small amount of money, but actively in small lots. Call it my evening time financial markets education here in Shanghai before I hit the sack.

    And I’m telling you the tape lately is LUNACY. We’ve got currencies, indexes, bonds, metals, going up and down with ZERO rhyme and reason, correlations reversing in seconds and tapes flying up and down. I’ve NEVER seen it like this. Don’t try to say these markets aren’t manipulated and jerked around more than ever by the puppetmasters…and a friendly beware to all.

    Cheers, Mario

    • mario cavolo October 31, 2013, 4:20 pm

      Let me make everyone’s life easy and straight here regarding the S&P index as a barometer example.

      The weekly S&P chart since 10/2011 shows artistically perfectly defined trend line support that we are going to now have a pullback to the line again down to a 1700ish pivot low before it turns back up again. So unless Rick’s meltdown event finally occurs in the next few weeks due to whatever disaster or decision may hit the headline, its plain as day, count on it, unless this time….blah, blah…

      Cheers, Mario

      • gary leibowitz November 3, 2013, 5:21 am

        Did you notice the dollar surged on Friday? It was impressive. In fact it might mean a reversal is here.
        Wonder if this affects the market next week.

    • Redwilldanaher October 31, 2013, 5:11 pm

      I am taking this opportunity to agree with you Mario. The tech bubble was worse in some ways but for across the board levitation this is it. Keep giving billions away monthly to elites to go to the casino and you don’t need the early days psyops motivation as much. Just like slick willie, they are hitched to this runaway train and that’s all they can point to so that’s what they must maintain. It has spilled over into disposables to a degree and they will try to spill over into everything. They have to. Look at autos, because poor credit consumers can still tap the magic, they’ve been able to spill over there too. If they can get back to liars loans before the implosion, watch out for the yellowstone caldera of modern “zeroes added electronically” to very large make-believe numbers…

    • gary leibowitz October 31, 2013, 11:05 pm

      Mario, if what you say is true than RICK’s technical are silly also. There is a natural rhyme to most things that are affected by human nature. I do agree that the SPX should correct to 1695 or lower according to the trend.

      Its like trying to understand the macro world using Quantum Mechanics. There must be a connection between the two but I certainly haven’t figured it out.
      The notion that the market doesn’t usually get it right falls smack against reality. Long term trends are there for a reason. The market has gotten it right. the tricky part is when conditions change enough to throw off that trend. So far the 5 year move has been with earnings at their best levels ever, along with gross margins. I wouldn’t call that a mystery.

      A manipulated market must some how also include earnings. The math doesn’t lie. Why not use the simplest answer to these concerns? Why look for chaos when there is order? If I was as smart as the general market I would have figured out that this environment was great for earnings. The liquidity of 1 trillion a year has been the catalyst.

      • mario cavolo November 1, 2013, 12:45 am

        Well it would seem Rick’s short term impulse leg trading catches the up and down gyrations fand pivots that occur occur along the way no matter the trend….I think Rick is now saying “Ah, Mario smart little grasshopper…”

        Good weekend all, Mario

      • Troll November 1, 2013, 2:39 am

        There’s still the question of the Dow . . . I hate when two indices (SPX and Indoos) come up with two different answers.

        Which one leads and which one follows?

        We shall find out soon enough 🙂

  • mario cavolo October 31, 2013, 10:37 am

    I just read that ACA has a “provision” in it very clearly stating that if your premium is more than 8% of your taxable income, you can opt out. Sorry, forget which article it was in…

    ?? Hmm…

    Cheers, Mario

  • mava October 31, 2013, 7:28 am

    [Pam Kehaly, president of Anthem Blue Cross in California, said she received a recent letter from a young woman complaining about a 50% rate hike related to the healthcare law.

    “She said, ‘I was all for Obamacare until I found out I was paying for it,’ ” Kehaly said.]

    ….just sitting here and gaping for air….

    BTW, they are using this quote to emphasize that the Obamacare is not wahat was promised! You would think they would have noticed that this quote is screaming “THEFT!”… They don’t, because they are schizophrenic.

  • John Jay October 31, 2013, 5:46 am

    Troll,
    I am in agreement with you.
    And,oh, the 1% have not forgotten about Detroit.
    Some rich guy has bought up lots of land there and is going to plant trees to create an urban forest.

    “After nearly five years of planning, a large-scale attempt to turn a big chunk of Detroit into an urban forest is now underway. The purchase of more than 1,500 vacant city-owned lots on the city’s lower east side – a total of more than 140 acres – got final approval from Detroit Emergency Manager Kevyn Orr and Michigan Governor Rick Snyder last week.”

    Link: http://tinyurl.com/o8uqlpu

    Could be he’s a nice guy.
    Could be he’ll sit on the land enjoying a low, agriculture property tax for a while, and then develop it.
    Who knows?
    It’s quite a show in any case!

    • Troll November 1, 2013, 2:50 am

      He might be a philanthropist or a capitalist. Every once in awhile (though rarely), the two go hand-in-hand.

  • original Dave October 31, 2013, 4:24 am

    “Even FOX is trying to drum up a rehash of the “secret” plots regarding Benghazi.

    Can you please run down the story for me that isn’t being aired? I still don’t see any smoking gun other than the usual penny pinching and slow reaction to events. Who knew, when, and why it was decided to do nothing about it. the info I received is the usual slow chain of command and lack of decisive action. in hindsight the blame is easy to surface. I wonder about the hundreds of false actions on tips and terrorist activities that failed to materialize.”

    Conservative Media Praise CBS’ 60 Minutes Report On Benghazi

    http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/10/28/conservative-media-praise-cbs-60-minutes-report/196625

    • gary leibowitz October 31, 2013, 5:33 pm

      FOX has saying Benghazi was a planned debacle with wild theories as to why. They insisted the military was in easy reach to stop the attack. They make everything a tabloid sideshow. On 9/11 there were dozens of sites the attack could occur on, with dozens of country targets. Did the administration decide to cut costs and rely on each countries government to protect the embassies? You bet. The gamble obviously backfired. Should we have deployed the military as soon as it was known they were under attack? I personally believe so, but I am not a military person, nor do I understand the geopolitical tactics involved. You are talking about sending American troops into non friendly countries. How would we react if another country decided to “rescue” their comrades by sending troops? Everything is so easy with you people. It is always either a Yes or No answer.

      How many times do they have to bring up Obama’s illegal citizen status? How many times do they put blame squarely on Obama for the Affordable Health Care Act when it modeled after Romney. When the Republicans insisted private insurance over government run insurance. Had the health bill been allowed to use a non-profit government run insurance there would be no wild disparity between states and insurers.

      Just turn on FOX News at any time of the day and see the sideshow they present. Take notes. Write all their rhetoric down and than use your search engine to verify or deny their claims. Want to guess what the results will be? They make unverifiable statements at a rate of 100 for every 1 that comes back true. They slant every bit of news to favor their cause. They have on their network the most outrageous hate filled clowns than all other networks combined. BUT, if you had looked at their network during Bush’s tenure you would think the President had a great favorable rating. They downplayed all criticism of his handling of 9/11, hurricane, war, and presented him and his administration as a follower of Reagan’s legacy.

  • gary leibowitz October 31, 2013, 1:09 am

    Perhaps the one reason why we fall back into a recession will be from our neighbors overseas. This market has a text book look of at minimum a normal 50 percent retrace correction from last spurt. SPX of 1690 or so should be first stop.

    Who said China runs a tight ship? Looks like they are as foolish as we are when it comes to excess credit. Is Mario still saying there is no problem and that there will not be a significant slow down in their future? This article begs to differ.

    “Against the backdrop of a slowing economy and overcapacity problems in some industries, some loans are gradually going bad,” said May Yan, a Hong Kong-based analyst at Barclays Plc. “We will see more bad loans forming because of the legacy of over expansion.”

    “The nation’s debt-to-GDP ratio, excluding central government and financial debt, widened to 207 percent at the end of the third quarter from 190 percent a year earlier as credit growth continued to outpace productivity gains”

    • mario cavolo October 31, 2013, 10:36 am

      My answer Gary is “Yes, lots of debt but also ten trillion USD in off the books cash and without the accompanying other weaknesses in their domestic economy such as in the U.S. Don’t count out a country with an extra ten trillion USD floating around, China is FAR better shape overall than the U.S. or Europe, not the place to be expecting the source of a global disaster…”

      Cheers, Mario

      • gary leibowitz October 31, 2013, 5:10 pm

        Mario, yes China is much better off simply because they are a fledgling country. Their policy however is the same as all the other capitalist burgeoning countries. Supply growth, even artificial, and the economy will catch up. They have been spending, over capacity, creating inflation, adding on debt, and trying to turn their country into an internally driven economy. I don’t see any difference with their policy than any other countries.

        They will run into the same problems going forward. The only difference is that their power to enact change is absolute.

  • John Jay October 30, 2013, 10:22 pm

    Craig,
    “Follow the money”……..
    The best three word explanation of how the world turns!
    The 400 families that run this country have historically done a superb job of maintaining the illusion that We the People are sovereign.
    I have to laugh at myself for believing that fiction for a good part of my life!

    Slick Willie’s role as Champion for NAFTA finally woke me up from my reverie.
    Then he helped kill Glass Steagall and here we are, on the rocks years later.
    It was obvious he was the Front Man for a big business coup.
    Now all the perps like Slick Willie, Alan G. and Stockman come out and say, gee, we were wrong it didn’t work out like we thought, while looking contrite and humble.
    How do they keep a straight face?

  • Redwilldanaher October 30, 2013, 2:14 pm

    I have decided to announce in this forum, a new plank in my platform.

    I am calling for affirmative action for would be criminals. The need for this is glaring and obviously everything should be equalized anyways…

    It’s simply not fair that countless underprivileged small timers do not have access to capital markets manipulation. Think of how many “Stevie Cohens” were prevented from achieving their dreams simply by having been born into a more challenging socio-economic environment. Why should these less fortunates have to do time for peddling a weed that when smoked makes people feel better? They should be able to pay a representative fine less than $1.2 bil and say they’ll never do it again just like Stevie. And No Jail time. I know that the prison industrial complex lobby will oppose this but I assume that the bleeding heart brigades will throw their full support behind me.

    I hope I can count on bipartisan support from Rick’s contributors as this is clearly the noblest of causes.

    • John Jay October 30, 2013, 7:43 pm

      Red,
      Looking at the campaign contribution reports it would seem that if you can afford to donate 200k annually, you’ve got their attention.

      If you can afford 700k a year, you’ve purchased immunity from prosecution.
      Eric’s got your back!

      And if you can afford high 6 or 7 figure contributions to Presidential election year campaigns, and do it consistently, you can write legislation which the POTUS and Congress will quickly rubber stamp for you.
      This is usually paid for by industry wide coalitions,
      Insurance, Oil, Wall Street, etc.

      That process leaves you and I out of the picture!

      • Craig October 30, 2013, 8:56 pm

        Bill Mahr and his $1M donation must have been a retainer fee….he likes the young girls…I saw it myself in Vegas.

  • Troll October 30, 2013, 5:37 am

    As for comments about Obama being WORST president ever . . . he inherited a pile of muck from the WORST presidents EVER!

    • John Jay October 30, 2013, 3:59 pm

      Troll,
      As far as the MIC goes, don’t forget the 1.5 TRILLION dollars of expected life of program costs for the Hanger Queen F-35!
      Link:http://tinyurl.com/lmy6pfa

      As far as Obama vs. Bush vs. Hillary, who’s the worst question, consider this bit of history:

      “Once the United States did enter the war (WWI), Prescott Bush’s father, Samuel Bush, was put in charge of small arms production. The Percy Rockefeller-headed Remington Arms Company got the lion’s share of the U.S. contracts. It sold millions of dollars worth of rifles to czarist forces, while it also profited handsomely from deals with the Germans.”

      Link: http://tinyurl.com/lm3btfv

      In the first few paragraphs on that page you can see the ancestors of the Rockefeller/Bush/Walker/Baker families as well as spooky Allen Dulles himself happily hard at work in arms dealing and geo-politics! And that was 100 years ago!

      MIC Looting.
      Same as it ever was.

      Add to that the Welfare State Looting we have today.
      Medicare, Section 8, EBT, Obamaphones, SSDI. etc.
      Yeah, some little old ladies and actual disabled people get helped, but I see waste, fraud, and vote buying.

      Same as it ever was.

      The electoral process is rigged so a Ron Paul or Pat Buchanan is never going to be credited with the actual votes he receives.
      Pat Buchanan went from a huge win in the NH primary to about 2% in AZ and TX?
      Really?
      AZ and TX, about as Conservative as you could get back then.
      2%?
      Who counted the votes and reported those results?

      Same as it ever was.

      My advice?

      Make more money!

      It’s all you have left to do.

      • Troll October 31, 2013, 1:51 am

        I am simply making a point that America seems far more concerned about saving the world when they can’t even save Detroit. Not to mention America DOES NOT have the money to save the world … Detroit, on the other hand, is do-able.

      • Redwilldanaher October 31, 2013, 5:13 pm

        Why should Detroit be saved? “Saving” Detroit is one reason they are where they now are…

        Just another corrupt, racist, big city machine. You want to save it? What’s stopping you?

      • Troll November 1, 2013, 2:15 am

        So, you are saying it’s okay to spend trillions of dollars “saving” Iraq and Afghanistan, while your countrymen go without affordable health care, Red?

      • Troll November 1, 2013, 2:17 am

        Let me clarify . . . if you WEREN’T spending trillions in the aforementioned countries, you wouldn’t have to spend trillions on affordable health care. The money could be allotted accordingly.

      • Redwilldanaher November 1, 2013, 3:41 am

        I am saying that you’re ridiculous. I’m opposed to Empire, do you know what that is?

        You are trolling the wrong forum if you want to argue with zombified republicans. Most people here are as opposed to the MIC as they are to saving a failed corrupt democratic machine city.

        You go ahead and save Detroit out of your own pocket. I’ll move to Dallas.

      • Troll November 1, 2013, 3:52 am

        Kudos, Red, you actually spelled “ridiculous” correctly, though you missed a blatantly obvious hyphen in a previous post (not to do with a response to me).

        Why would you be opposed to universal health care and helping your own if it could be done in an affordable manner if your country just cut back on military spending? Because that isn’t the American way?

        So . . . what IS the American way? Please, enlighten me, as I am bored with Thursday Night Football and could use some entertainment.

      • Troll November 1, 2013, 4:22 am

        Oh, yes . . . aside from your overlooked hyphen . . . “anyways” is NOT a word.

      • Troll November 1, 2013, 4:54 am

        As far as “trolling” goes, my question is, “Who’s the troll?”

        I am not the one on here saying “Everything about America sucks.”

        You are.

        Apparently, you have a captive audience.

        Good for you.

      • DK November 1, 2013, 9:53 am

        Troll, you are seriously going after RWD on a few grammatical errors? Good luck with the rest of the forum, it will take you forever. I know my writing sucks, c’est la vie, I’m trying but I’ll be the first to admit it’s not at the core of my purpose.

        By the way, if you eat crap and GMO’s, don’t exercise and take basic necessary care for yourself, take personal responsibility with a grain of salt, and otherwise act foolishly with your own health, I DON’T WANT TO PAY FOR YOUR HEALTHCARE. Got it?! Yet I am being forced to.
        They’ll understand “force” when they later decide they don’t want that swine flu vaccine that is loaded with all kinds of “extras” (cue in sinister laugh). No thanks, if I later find that I was wrong, I’ll let you know and I’ll get mine. Until then, back off.

        Oh and for the record, the government in the US is currently lobbied 3X heavier by our medical system than it is by defense/aerospace or oil/gas. There’s some other math for you.

        I couldn’t agree more about bringing troops home and shutting down hundreds of bases abroad. They are simply components of a much larger downsizing this country needs to see if it ever wants to return to fiscal sanity. Monetary sanity is an entirely different issue and is more of an 800lb gorilla.

        Oh, and RWD, I might have the energy for Gary and his ilk (Jill, Martin, Curtis, etc), but I’m not wasting it anymore. I may convey my opinions from time to time but I will not be engaging them in debate anymore; an exercise in futility.

      • DK November 1, 2013, 10:12 am

        There was a ringing in my ear:

        http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-10-31/americas-genetically-modified-foods-infographic

        So sad, yet all does not appear to be lost.

      • Redwilldanaher November 1, 2013, 1:51 pm

        The more you post the more you reveal. My brother holds a d phil from oxford. Studied at merton. English lit. He literally answered to the guys that sit where Tolkienn and Eliot once sat, among others. Teaches undergrad. Do you really think that I don’t know how to use a gramspell checker?

        I’m on a mobile device tool. Anyways is a colloqialism.
        Do you know what that is?

        Obviously you’re special needs. Get back to your playstation.

      • Troll November 2, 2013, 6:46 am

        Yes, Red, special needs … kind of like name-dropping how great your brother is. That, my friend, is a “special need.”

        “Yeah, well, so! Look at my brother!

        I can only pray he has something less negative to say about life on earth than you.

      • Redwilldanaher November 2, 2013, 3:54 pm

        Wrong on all counts as usual little fella. Are you Gary’s teenage nephew?

        My point that you always seem to miss is that I have the ability to use a gramspell checker and that you have no idea to whom you are making your mindless remarks.

        My brother has no respect for all the degrees that he’s accumulated. He knows the truth which is that in modern times everything is a devalued fraud compared to what it once was.

        Look, every boy starts out as a greenhorn sheep. That’s by the empire’s design. If you mature and begin to question things as has been suggested here, you have a puncher’s chance of figuring out many layers. Otherwise you will remain just another victim in the arrested development club. I can sense that you revel in that status so keep living your charmed life.

        My sources have it that the new Halo release will be sick!

  • Troll October 30, 2013, 4:11 am

    Let me put it another way:

    Why does someone who has it in their cultural make-up to hate and despise the US, take precedence (where your tax dollars are concerned) over a poor American citizen who has lived and paid taxes their entire life in the US and could use your help (and won’t get it) because they are sick and don’t have the finances to look after themselves?

  • Troll October 30, 2013, 2:59 am

    By the end of 2008, the U.S. had spent approximately $900 billion in direct costs on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The government also incurred indirect costs, which include interests on additional debt and incremental costs, financed by the Veterans Administration, of caring for more than 33,000 wounded. Some experts estimate the indirect costs will eventually exceed the direct costs.[7] As of June 2011, the total cost of the wars was approximately $3.7 trillion

    So . . . How much is Obamacare going to cost the US over the next ten years?

    So, how about convincing the US to mind their own business and clean up their own back yard instead of pissing it away in places like Afghanistan and Iraq?

    Cost savings (even with Obamacare . . . trillions).

    Now, before any of you “we Americans are out to save the world,” Yankee Doodle Dandies retort, none of you have a right to submit a response if you think US companies like Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan et al are part of a HUGE consortium of evil people who want nothing more than to separate us from what little money we have left.

    How about you stop pissing away money on the US military instead?

  • original Dave October 29, 2013, 10:55 pm
  • Jarretp12 October 29, 2013, 8:53 pm

    The smart health care workers will get their education and one or two years of experience in the USA, and then they will move to a higher wage country such as Sweden.

    They have to live in a high wage country in order to service crushing student loan payments. How else are they going to survive in the USA if the payments from medicare and medicaid continue to shrink?

  • John Jay October 29, 2013, 5:43 pm

    We have already entered the “Dark Ages.”
    Common decency and morality are rapidly going extinct.
    Obamacare is simply one more pillage in the “Sack of Rome”.

    Barbarians!
    Everyday there are fewer of “Us” and more of “Them”.
    Everyday “They” grow stronger and “We” grow weaker.

    A perfect analogy of our plight can be found about 1,600 years ago when the distracted citizens of Ephesus were all at the local arena for the “Games” when a horde of barbarians rode up to slaughter them and sack the city.
    “Look, is that a Scythian horseman over there?”
    “Nooooooooooo! Can’t be!”

    This time the sack and slaughter have been spread out over 50 years, so the mob believed the Emperor when he always told them “All is well, this is still the greatest Empire in the world!”

    It is not going to turn around, today, tomorrow, or ever.
    After the Oligarchs have sucked the last dime out of the paychecks of the few people that still have a job, they are going to confiscate your pensions, your savings, and your property.
    They want it all, and Uncle Sam is eager to facilitate that desire of theirs.

    The Oligarchs are now leading a huge push to get “Immigration Reform” passed.
    Do you think that law is meant make your life better?
    Ten or twenty million new “Citizens” will mean your vote and your labor will become worthless.
    Any “Hoops” in that law will be discarded as “Unfair or Unenforceable” and will be discarded in future legislation.
    Same as it ever was.

    The only defense left to you is to make as much money as you can in the next few years and fade away into the hills.
    Rick is correct, Hillary Clinton will be your next “Empress”, and nothing can stop this runaway train.
    And yes, that is a Scythian horseman over there!
    Really!

    • Redwilldanaher October 29, 2013, 6:57 pm

      Exactly…

    • DK October 30, 2013, 6:36 am

      BINGO!

      And Hillary has quietly started her march, slowly accumulating and recruiting as she moves on. Someone, I believe it was Craig, mentioned Larry Nichols here recently. Larry has said many times before that she is one of the most disturbing, scariest s.o.b’s he has ever known – we have NO idea what she is capable of and what she has in store for this country. Recall her reaction to Libya? She just NEEDS Benghazi to fade to black. The media is doing the best it can to change the conversation.

      • Redwilldanaher October 30, 2013, 1:56 pm

        The lack of real reporting on Benghazi reminds me of the lack of real reporting on 911. The Clintons have repeatedly proven that they are valuable nwo puppets. It will take a figurative silver bullet or staking for them to finally stop haunting this country.

      • gary leibowitz October 30, 2013, 5:48 pm

        Even FOX is trying to drum up a rehash of the “secret” plots regarding Benghazi.

        Can you please run down the story for me that isn’t being aired? I still don’t see any smoking gun other than the usual penny pinching and slow reaction to events. Who knew, when, and why it was decided to do nothing about it. the info I received is the usual slow chain of command and lack of decisive action. in hindsight the blame is easy to surface. I wonder about the hundreds of false actions on tips and terrorist activities that failed to materialize.

        But hey, I am a government plant anyway so why respond. Lets not tack down the cause and affect, instead lets keep the conspiracies alive.

        As for Obama care it seems that a lot of independent (non-group company) insurance policies didn’t cover you if you had a prolonged costly health issue. Some might not care because they gamble it would never affect them. Silly of the government to put a minimum coverage to protect people in case of catastrophic health issues. Most here would prefer the individual to decide and be smart enough to understand the risks.

        &&&&

        There was no secret Benghazi plot, Gary. Four good men died. And on the simple facts alone, Hillary must bear a heavy share of the responsibility. Instead, she has insulted the nation and sullied its reputation through lies and evasions.

        The “Let’s move on!” school of thought for whom you — and the mainstream media — are energetic cheerleaders will succeed in doing so only over the dead bodies of those four men. RA

      • Rick Ackerman October 30, 2013, 8:48 pm

        Fox is doing its best to make sure Benghazi is still an issue when Hillary makes her run, DK. Who knows — maybe the brazen lying, cheating and double-dealing she and her friends did to cover up the commodity trade will re-surface? Speaking as a trader myself, that’s one scandal that simply won’t wash. Victor Niederhoffer’s forensic analysis had her dead-to-rights.

        That said, what scares me is that America always seems to get the president it deserves.

      • Redwilldanaher October 30, 2013, 8:56 pm

        I am done doing your homework for you Gary. Craig and DK have energy left for you, I no longer do. If you weren’t so lazy you’d have a clue about the truth of benghazi but instead you slumber like a child.

        Your credit is at ZERO with me. You are an indefatigable and incorrigible apologist for all things statist. Your one note sound can make me ill if I even give it a second listen.

        You’ve been called out several dozen times by me and many more times by others. Then the pattern follows: ignore, obfuscate, equivoacate… REALLY a tired act, really worn thin and old at this point. You absurdly argue with most here as if they are neocons when you know better that they are really libertarians.

        You have a lot of work to do to restore a semblance of credibility from where I sit.

        Start out by defending Barry’s latest whopper above. The crickets and bullfrogs need a break…

      • Redwilldanaher October 30, 2013, 9:00 pm

        Great memory Rick. I read Victor’s take down of that witch. If that “couple” doesn’t scream “sociopaths” to you, you’re deaf…

      • gary leibowitz October 30, 2013, 11:02 pm

        Red, called out? You have got to be kidding. I elaborate on any question asked but never get the same courtesy.

  • gary leibowitz October 29, 2013, 5:15 pm

    The Dems are getting heat over the cancellation of policies that were promised not to change. The President is back tracking his stance. Looks like politics does make congress react. There will be a delay and overhaul to fix the plan. I suspect the people with less coverage than the governments current mandate will still be allowed to keep it.

    I suspect the insurance companies will be having a private meeting with congress. I also suspect that if the insurance companies don’t play ball there will be tax consequences.

    The power of the people! In a free and democratically elected nation! Fancy that! Where else would the voice of the public be heard so loudly?

    I think this discussion should be restarted once the rollout occurs. No sense in guessing the outcome.

    • Craig October 29, 2013, 8:44 pm

      Shill (Gary)….please provide a link or evidence that we are a democracy?

      Why don’t you look at the constitution that you are so allergic to and find out we are a representative republic!

      Once again MOVE to your socialist/democratic utopia….1937 socialist Germany is about what you desire.

      • mario cavolo October 30, 2013, 4:31 am

        Craig, I was thinking about the cover of Business Week around 3-4 years ago. Something to the effect that is obviously a socialist country govt now. It keeps going in that direction, can’t be a 28′ sloop fighting the waves in a storm… for better and for worse.

        But I must say I do love the selfish wealthy folks who first got rich at the expense of the deteriorating middle class but now doesn’t want to have any part of helping them. Selfish wealthy f&^%ckers I say…typical throughout history of course…

        Cheers, Mario

    • gary leibowitz October 30, 2013, 4:51 pm

      Lots of misinformation out there. Seems that the government will allow you to hold your existing policy BUT it must meet minimum standards. If a car insurance company can give you cut rates on a policy but have no liability payout, or one that is trivial, what do you suppose happens when you get into an accident? The policy is tested and needed the most when you are at your worse.

      I suggest that a study be done on all those millions that claim they will lose their existing policy. What does their current policy lack in minimum standards?

      No need for anyone to tear this statement down. Either you look for answers or you take the easy way and bash anything this administration does.

      You can argue whether the government should intrude on our lives, but you should repeal the century old laws first. The biggest expense outside of mortgage payments is medical care. We have minimum standards for loans, car insurance, but not health insurance? To dismiss the two largest costs that families could incur is silly. Home and health.

      Where were the news reports and outrage these past 50 years from insurance policies that cost families everything they had to pay their medical bills. What is the minimum standard that insurers can get away with?

      • Redwilldanaher October 30, 2013, 10:08 pm

        The law is forcing them to comply. They make a change and the policy can no longer be sold.

        This is by design so it all goes single payer. Anyone that thinks for themselves realizes this.

        You’re a statist tool.

      • gary leibowitz October 30, 2013, 11:00 pm

        As usual I get absolutely no response to my questions or view point. This only affects individual policies. It also only affects individual policies that will not provide enough coverage if you get a catastrophic illness. Wouldn’t you want there to be insurance to stand up to this requirement? I suppose we could leave it up to the individual and if he/she doesn’t read the fine print and gets sick without compensation, too bad!

        Why is it a common occurrence that the day the Fed releases their minutes, even with perfectly telegraphed speeches, the market reacts negatively? Is this the start of another round of corrections? I suspect so. Seasonality is closing in on a drop till mid-November.

      • VegasBob November 1, 2013, 7:57 am

        OK, Gary, let’s make it real simple.

        Why should the government determine what kind of policy I should buy?

        I’m perfectly happy to buy a catastrophic coverage and effectively self-insure a $10,000 annual deductible.

        Those policies are not allowed anymore under Obummercare except for the under-30 age cohort.

        So why can’t I just buy what I want???

      • Redwilldanaher November 2, 2013, 3:21 am

        Notice just how M I A Gary and Jill are this week. MSLSD hasn’t provided them with viable talking points yet. They must really be over caffeinated watching round the clock for the retort they’re counting on that will never come…

  • DK October 29, 2013, 3:46 pm

    Totally off topic.
    In light of another Tesla roadster going up in flames, I checked up on some of the competition in the battery market – I used to focus on them a lot while the boondoggle of the Chevy Volt was being thought up.
    It appears one of the outfits I used to follow the battery technology of, Altair Nanotechnologies, might be another lift; great opening bar today. I have no idea if this is related and this company has a very checkered past but the battery they created was very impressive. It was expensive and only made sense in huge scales – I recall they were trying to address that by going towards public trans and entering China’s markets.
    I guess it’s a wait and see, just thought it was interesting.

  • dan October 29, 2013, 4:34 am

    somewhere in the many pages of obummercare we might find that any Dr. using a cash pay system will not be allowed to practice at any hospital…thereby rendering them useless to patients……..government control is the ultimate goal of TPTB….imho

    • Redwilldanaher October 29, 2013, 5:03 pm

      Exactly. All about control. BORDER OPEN. NO TSA AT THOUSANDS OF SMALL AIRPORTS.

      It is all a fraud. You have to be a zombie to believe it.

    • TMM October 29, 2013, 11:23 pm

      When my spouse practiced in Canada, there was the option for doctors to opt out of billing the healthcare system and only accept cash pay. To do so, the doctor has to opt out entirely, which means they cannot use govt. funded labs, clinics, hospitals, etc. for their patient tests and procedures. Since there aren’t very many private medical facilities yet, nor the cash-paying patients willing to cough up the full cost of their care, most choose to stay in the system since it is included in their taxes anyway.

  • mario cavolo October 29, 2013, 4:17 am

    SOMEONE truly needs to do a check at the ACA website on who will pay how much based on their household. Until we have some decent sample figures, we’re frankly arguing in the dark. As I posted earlier, a man with 3 kids earning 35,000 said his subsidy covered the premium and he would pay very little. While others, unfortunately and apparently will pay more. Rick says more will pay more than will pay less. This is all way too general. As far as the general high and rising premiums go, that was already a problem because of the corrupt healthcare system. Overall, Obamacare seems to be adding to all those costs, its more taxes period. But, as to the benefits and to whom, this is a question that needs to be answered far more clearly than to date.

    Cheers, Mario

    &&&&&

    See the link I ballyhooed above, under DK’s post. RA

    • VegasBob October 29, 2013, 4:31 am

      Mario, forget the subsidies. I don’t qualify.

      For me, the prior Kaiser plan available in Washington State (a ‘guaranteed issue’ state) was $366 a month. Kaiser’s Obummercare rate is $524 a month.

      That looks like a 43% premium hike to me.

      I’m 61, male and have no children. Obummercare says I really need maternity coverage and pediatric coverage and have to pay for it, Mario.

      Come on. Obummercare is a crock!

      • VegasBob October 29, 2013, 4:32 am

        …pediatric dental coverage…

      • mario cavolo October 29, 2013, 6:01 am

        VegasBob of course we don’t expect you to answer publicly, but the question is what’s your income level? I don’t want to assume anything and I’m only creating a dialogue here, not pro/against. If a family is earning more than $100,000/yr and their premium goes up $200 while a family earning $40,000 has their premium go down, what’s so wrong with that? Higher income, you pay more. Lower income, you pay less, hoping of course that the taxes are fairly assessed. That’s what taxes are in any country.

        Come to think of it, again, who is making lower income and complaining that their ACA premium has gone up? If you’re making $100,000 year and you’re now hit with a new tax adding $200/month to you budget, , that’s a 2.4% tax increase, you may not like any tax increase but I’m not really fiddling my violin for you. Again, we need clearer set of sample numbers to have a more intelligent discussion.

        Cheers, Mario

      • VegasBob October 29, 2013, 8:08 am

        You’re ducking my question. You didn’t answer why I should be forced to pay for maternity coverage and pediatric dental care.

        I’m not a woman, nor do I have children. Besides, even if I were a woman, why should a 61-year old woman well past her child-bearing years be forced to pay for maternity coverage, or pediatric dental coverage for non-existent children?

        I have no desire to be a slave to the government, which is just a collection of people I don’t know and don’t care to know, though it seems that the socialists around here think I ought to be a slave.

      • mario cavolo October 29, 2013, 8:18 am

        wow yea, couldn’t agree more! They should be able to deliver the ability to setup plans with options for coverage that is obviously needed/appropriate.

        Application:
        name, gender, marital status?
        # of dependents
        last year’s reported final taxable income?
        maternity coverage yes/no
        children? pediatric coverage? yes/no

        Seems quite an issue as are I’m sure many other details in the way they are executing. I wonder how other countries manage their programs in this regard.

        Cheers, Mario

      • Rick Ackerman October 30, 2013, 8:38 pm

        Exactly, Vegas Bob. I recently switched to a Kaiser plan. Two months later they informed me that my business-of-one coverage, for which I pay $821/month, was not going to be offered after Jan 1. The new plan would require me, as you have stated, to take an “approved plan,” at much greater cost, that includes such “essentials” — I am 64 — as maternity and pediatric care. The only reason I’ve managed to escape this extortion is that my original contract will remain in force till the September 2014 renewal. By then I’ll be on Medicare — hoping, of course, that Obama-style mean-testing does not force me to pay through the nose for something I’ve been paying for over my entire, 50-year working life.

      • Jason S October 31, 2013, 7:38 pm

        Vegas, your new plan will cover the sex change operation and fertility drugs necessary for you to take advantage of that maternity and pediatric care coverage they mandate you have. It’s all good.

    • gary leibowitz October 29, 2013, 4:39 am

      Mario, you hit it on the head. The median average family income in the United States is around 50,000 per household (working full time). 51 percent of households earn less than 50,000 per year, of that 28 percent earn 25,000 or less. I am guessing for those 51 percent the costs are shifted to the other 49 percent. It really is a redistribution of wealth, similar to what the federal tax code SHOULD be. I do not argue the point of whether we should or should not redistribute wealth. It is a program that puts more cost burden onto the better off families and less on the government and poor.

      • Rick Ackerman October 30, 2013, 8:43 pm

        Bull. It is not the 51% who will pay, but rather the top 5% who are already paying 90% of all taxes.

    • mava October 29, 2013, 4:51 pm

      Mario,

      It is irrelevant how much do we have to pay. As long as the cost of this Obamacare is non-zero, it is a theft, a highway robbery.

      Because if I needed an insurance, I could always go and buy it.

      The point is not that it make our life better or worse by changing the price of insurance, but that it steals our freedom of not buying the insurance at all.

      Boobus Americanus has lost its own mind in the fallacy it takes for freedom. Boobus thinks that you have the right to be helped. Therefore, Boobus will kill someone else to acquire the means to make it happen.
      Boobus does not and cannot possibly comprehend that violence breeds violence. Boobus likes nothing less than to declare a war on someone else.

      It is not about the cost. I don’t particularly care whether it is a hundred or a thousand. I don’t like to be violated, that’s the point.

      Mario, to argue that provided the cost is low we can say that this violent measure is a good thing, is no different in principle than to say that provided there is enough pleasure, the rape can also a good thing.

      • Redwilldanaher October 29, 2013, 5:02 pm

        Go mava!

      • mario cavolo October 29, 2013, 6:40 pm

        Man, you keep talking about violent measures, what the? The option you so hold so beloved to not have to pay, I agree, it sounds right on the surface, but with THAT option people were getting screwed when they DID need healthcare services which you don’t care about at all which is exactly why the Biblical “camel eye of the needle” parable is spot on.

        I really think it would be great if all the wealthy folks who have paid far less than their fair share of taxes gave a big chunk of it to a pooled fund to support the people that got screwed along the way. The top .7% worldwide hold $99 TRILLION of the wealth. Let’s go ahead and put $20 trillion back into the disintegrating society and then it would stop disintegrating. That’s equally great on surface but crazy too, would never work, would never be managed the way its supposed to be, but you can’t have it both ways Mava.

        Cheers, Mario

    • mario cavolo October 31, 2013, 10:32 am

      Thanks Rick, read that article link, thanks again to DK, and could only possibly reply with “uhoh” and “ouch”, looks like a disastrous mess overall and a very expensive mess the country certainly cannot afford. Too bad, “reasonable” national healthcare for a country is a nice idea for a society…

      Cheers, Mario

  • Redwilldanaher October 29, 2013, 1:17 am

    http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/28/21213547-obama-admin-knew-millions-could-not-keep-their-health-insurance?lite

    This couldn’t have come at a better time. It’s from State media too! (Nbc)

    This is a call out to every servile boot licker that’s attempted to defend this congenital liar puppet (thanks Safire).

    It’s time to unequivocally bash your false god. Anything short of that…

    • Redwilldanaher October 29, 2013, 6:59 pm

      Crickets and bullfrogs as I expected…

      • Redwilldanaher October 30, 2013, 10:13 pm

        Where are Gary and Jill?, said the cricket to the bullfrog…

      • Redwilldanaher October 31, 2013, 5:14 pm

        Did your god lie or not Gary?

    • Redwilldanaher November 1, 2013, 3:43 am

      The Great Equivocator has not spoken…

      • Redwilldanaher November 2, 2013, 3:21 am

        Case closed.

  • original Dave October 29, 2013, 12:04 am

    Middle class Obamacare woes…

    “right now i’m paying $54 a month. actually, they bill me quarterly so it’s $162. and the new plan is going to be $591 a month. it’s almost ten times more. ten times more than what i’m making…”

    http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?play=1&video=3000211887

    • Jeff W. November 1, 2013, 7:19 am

      Wish I had that original plan. I was/am at $389/mo as a healthy 33 year old and have been for about a year.

  • mary October 28, 2013, 11:47 pm

    Seems that Gary doesn’t get it. I suggest we don’t feed the troll.

    • VegasBob October 29, 2013, 12:05 am

      Agreed, Mary.

      Gary doesn’t seem to understand that nobody is required to drive, in which case they have no need to pay for driver’s licenses, auto insurance, gas taxes, or road tolls.

      And, of course, real estate taxes are only assessed on property owners.

      With respect to Social Security and Medicare taxes, I bitterly resented paying those taxes when I worked, and would resent paying today if I were still working. But at least there is a theoretical payoff if one lives long enough to collect it.

      Breathing, of course, is not optional. Yet if you happen to be breathing, you are likely to be caught up in the Obummercare dragnet, forced to pay a private company for insurance coverage that you may not need or want.

      The alternative to Obummercare is to be forced to pay a tax for asserting one’s right to continue breathing without paying tribute to the gonifs running the insurance companies.

      Only the willfully blind cannot see that the individual mandate is a form of involuntary servitude, AKA slavery.

      • DK October 29, 2013, 3:04 pm

        Vegas,
        I have auto insurance but I live in a state where it’s not required/mandated. People here are very responsible, courteous drivers and most have insurance because, well, it’s just more practical and living without a car is not easy here. We aren’t densely populated and if you don’t live nearby one of the local colleges, public trans takes forever to get you from A-B, so most own cars. By virtue of personal responsibility, protection, and ease of mind they get coverage – at least everyone I know does.

      • Carol October 30, 2013, 4:37 pm

        Vegas Bob

        it is even better than you stated.

        no one has to “drive” because driving is a commercial activity so if you “chose” to drive then you chose to be regulated. Certainly those of us who are not involved in commerce have every right to “travel” the “highways” in our “household goods” without any requirements for tags, license, insurance, etc.

        As far as real estate taxes again only those involved in commerce – ie taking out a commercial mortgage, buying commercial homeowners insurance, or buying commercial title insurance – are required to register/record their deeds into a system set up ONLY for COMMERCIAL property to be “taxed”.

        With respect to medicare and SS taxes – it is the same as “ocare” only “US person” are “required” to buy ocare. US persons are corporations created by the US Inc and are “employees” of the federal government.

        No one “forces” anyone in this country to do anything unless of course you volunteer to be a “US person” and then involve yourself in “commerce” voluntarily.

        This country truly is the freest in the world if everyone would just STOP volunteering to be regulated when they DON”T have to be! Of course they “cops” and most other idiots are just as “educated” as the sheeple to not know these things which makes “freedom” very difficult but not impossible!

      • Jason S October 31, 2013, 7:04 pm

        Vegas, dont forget that Social Security really isnt a tax (because it is set up to actuarially pay back to the individual what has been collected) but a forced savings account for retirement because in ’35 the government determined we were incapable of saving for ourselves. Yet somehow we all think of it as a tax, treat it like a tax and are willing to have it manipulated like it were a tax. If this was your savings account would you allow the government to jerk with it as they do? Hell no! But that is what it is a government mandated savings account for us.

    • gary leibowitz October 29, 2013, 4:47 am

      Vegas, roll the dice and see what happens.

      No one has to pay for auto, real estate etc.. I guess if you live under a rock. How absurd to think that people don’t need cars and homes. I guess people don’t need to get sick either. Perhaps we should get that DNA marker at birth and kill anyone that will get a costly disease, thru no fault of their life style. I know, do away with any assistance if a person is poor with no means of paying. that would certainly reduce the population and allow for the wealthiest to dominate. it would reduce costs. Perhaps we should institute a program similar to the traditional Eskimos. If old and unable to produce for the tribe, put them out on an ice block.

  • Rob P October 28, 2013, 11:42 pm

    Gary, everyone has coverage for medical treatment. It’s called “picking up the phone and making an appointment.” But how do we pay for it. Yes, that is the question. You can pay $10,000 per year (for family) with a $5,000 deductible, or you can pay for what you use. Only one of those options makes money for the insurance industry. Yet somehow it’s a win for the public when health insurance providers are required to charge big bucks to everyone regardless of pre-existing conditions.

    Government control automatically makes everything worse. If you were to open your eyes, you would see that every .gov contract is an opportunity for graft, waste, corruption and granted monopoly powers that only government can provide. Fraud and bribery in the third world are more honest in comparison. Instead of paying $600,000,000 for a healthcare.gov website contract and cronies getting maybe 5% of that directly, perhaps .gov could go to a $5MM direct transfer to said cronies added on to the $5MM the contract is worth. Either way, some connected slimeball gets a cut. If you add enough subcontracts, the common folk get all confused, and the cronies can then get half of the contract plum through some partially owned affiliates and subsidiaries.

    • Redwilldanaher October 29, 2013, 1:11 am

      Thumbs up!

    • gary leibowitz October 29, 2013, 4:27 am

      The perfect long term example of government health intervention is Medicare. Do people complain about its lack of accessibility for doctors, hospital stay, medication, treatment? It is a huge success. Now before I get the usual answers of disbelief, I am ONLY talking about the benefits to it’s citizens. There is no comparison to previous insurance that would decide its cost effectiveness. The studies done on this is mixed. Most lean to more cost effectiveness with the current Medicare System than without.

      I don’t question or argue the point that this new program will cost individuals that make a decent salary more money than their previous private insurance. I do not argue that government’s can keep supporting the current programs like Medicaid, Medicare, and Social Security.

      I am arguing that this program was intended to put everyone under medical care while reducing government costs. Yes reducing current costs. The Medicare program will be affected by this new program with a reduction of some benefits and spending limits. I suspect Social Security will also get chopped some in the near future. In affect this new program is the start of the end of increased government spending. Burden is now being placed on those that can afford to pay more. The studies that look at the rise in future Medicare/Medicaid/Social Security costs show it to be unsustainable at current rate.

      A great ploy to announce universal health care while reducing government costs in the future. Watch how the elderly will not get the elective surgeries under government insurance like they used to. Watch how the elderly will not get costly life extension procedures based on actuarial data.

      I know most here will just ignore my rants as something out of my imagination, but if you dig into these suppositions you will see the trend.

      • Craig October 29, 2013, 8:51 pm

        Your perfect example(s) is/are broke and will be 100% in debt equal to GDP each. The only reason they lasted this long were demographics, more people paying then cashing out. All that is reversing and we will have a 3rd country or worse. because of it (think Detroit everywhere). Do dumb just move.

        &&&&&

        Gary’s static analysis doesn’t dare consider what Medicare is about to become. Private insurance provides huge subsidies to Medicare, but Obamacare is about to make them dry up. At the same time, the Guvvamint will be shifting $700 billion to ObaMedicaid. He also doesn’t talk about the growing number of doctors who are refusing to take Medicare and Medicaid patients. Nor does he see means-testing coming along that will force “the rich” (i.e., those making more than $75,000) to pay far more than their fair share for Medicare.

        Gary, save your breath if you’re planning to respond with the usual twaddle. RA

  • gary leibowitz October 28, 2013, 7:03 pm

    Forced to get a drivers license and obey each states differing laws. Forced to buy car insurance, where the premiums are astronomical in certain states, no matter how you shop around. Forced to contribute to Medicare and Social Security. Forced to pay tolls, gasoline tax determined by each state, real estate taxes, etc…

    I wonder if anyone here ever benefited from any of these taxes? It is after all an intrusion on our personal liberties.

    Universal health like all the other forced programs seem to only get complaints with no upside whatsoever. I haven’t heard one argument that acknowledge any benefits to anyone. I wonder why the costs seem so high with not a single person benefiting from this new program. Has anyone looked at the pay structure? In fact the poorest states that have been allowed to reduce or abandoned social programs will benefit the most. These very same states have a populous that is the most adamantly against this program.

    Why would anyone think that having coverage for medical treatment is automatically bad? I can understand the argument of government intrusion and waste. I can understand the notion that there are better less costly ways to implement this plan.

    The black and white mentality again. Anything implemented by the government has to be bad. I hear Mario praise the China Doctrine. Can you imagine if our government was a mirror image of China’s? Pollution, black market, free-enterprise zones, disparity between rich and poor, strict unified government laws and rules. Any disagreement will be dealt with swiftly. No dissent on anything pertaining to government rule there. Small price to pay for such a cheap living expenses. health? One of the most unhealthy places to live in the world. Talking food, water, air. A trifecta. But once again a small price to pay for having a government that can get things done!

    All the programs that this government spends wildly on happen to be for the benefit of its people, as opposed to a select few. That might just put us all in the poor house, but to claim it is for nefarious reasons is absurd. yes this bleeding heart nation should suck it up and get its financial house in order before it spends on its citizens. Yes this new nationalized health program will be another Medicare, Social Security boondoggle. Yes we can’t afford the added burden on both individuals and from government coffers. I agree with all that.
    Yet I can understand why it is being done.

    Will the final cost structure be unmanageable? Will it fall on its own weight? The answer will be found soon enough. Give it time to make or break. It will also have a profound impact on the political landscape. The Dems have taken a big risk here. If you really want to understand the pulse of the people watch the next cycle of elections.

    • Craig October 28, 2013, 7:59 pm

      Got food Gary?

    • mario cavolo October 29, 2013, 4:12 am

      Nice post Gary.

      Oh come on, speaking of black and white. YOU just did it re: China! Easy to agree and notice all the problems you mentioned buuuuutttt:) they are building out a pinnacle of success with governance rising 300 million people into a middle class society that’s more comfortable than America’s ever was. People earning American wages but with no mortgages, no credit card debt.

      A central govt is a central govt, if they do a great job, great. If not, everyone is screwed. In America we allowed the idiots in Washington the joys of democratic govt and what did they do? Same story, put the power in the hands of the few and they abuse it regardless of the particular system of govt.

      I think its great that the U.S. has national healthcare. Heck, they were the only major country on the planet that didn’t! And you’re right, there are plenty of people who will benefit while others won’t. BUT, the underlying healthcare system is the problem, it was corrupted with out of control outrageous usurious, mafia pricing to rape the system and then they layered an icing of a national tax across the top of the cake they built. By the way, I asked my French friend the other day, he said taxes high there, the healthcare tax portion is around 15% of income.

      Cheers, Mario

      • gary leibowitz October 29, 2013, 5:00 am

        Mario, just pointing out that a one-sided Pollyanna view of China doesn’t cut it. Government child and safety laws? Wages? Working conditions? It would work great here if we instituted child bearing laws and punishments. What mandatory government programs are enacted to prevent abuses? Your major industrial cities are so polluted you need to wear a mask at all times. What percentage of all its citizens earn a standard of living approaching the United States? What safety net do they have?

        Do we really have to quote the facts from each of these countries? Do you really think China has a better government set up for the benefit of all its citizens? Yes we are broke as is Europe. The complaint though is that the waste is BECAUSE it is too freely given to the lazy or poor. Which society cares for its citizens more? If China was to ever adapt protections for its citizens like we do, they would be broke also.

      • mario cavolo October 29, 2013, 5:51 am

        Couldn’t agree more and I certainly don’t hold a Pollyanna China view, facts are facts and you are just too far negative and incorrect here. You’re distorting by illustrating extremes.

        Yes pollution is a problem with China being factory to the world but you’ve got to stop watching the media and spouting off the idea that people need to wear masks every day, its a clear blue sky with lovely white clouds today in Shenyang (my wife’s there now and Shanghai. The media posts two contrast photos and says “see that horrible smog?” They didn’t say it was an overcast cloudy foggy day, it was 100% smog. No it wasnt, but it makes great headlines. They are far behind the eightball pollution wise because of the past, its a real problem, but China’s level of investment in alt energy is far higher than any other country, in solar/wind/nuclear, they’re not ignoring the problem.

        What child bearing laws and punishment? I have no clue what you are referring to?..you mean the one child policy? That’s a straightforward policy that clearly said we have too many people here. If you want to have one child, fine, they get govt benefits in the system available to them, such as the public school system for example. If you have a 2nd child, the govt will not cover that child, you have to pay for that yourself upfront and the cost is $16,000. Call it taxes or fees, but you can’t call it a penalty. The govt said “hey, we’re telling you now we aren’t capable of managing and providing for another 500,000,000 million people on top of the 900,000,000 we already have, stop making so many babies. You don’t want to stop? Then you need to pay the benefit cost they will receive upfront. That’s an accurate representation of what the policy is. Unfortunately, locally, individual idiot govt officials would tell women they had to abort, etc. Very sad stuff.

        The evidence is obvious today that China has a better govt setup for its citizens, why would you ask that? China’s citizens’ lives have drastically improved to an unprecedented level in history while America’s middle class life that they had before has been in steady decline while the Republic is gone and the wealthy Wall Street/corporate/govt cronies have absconded with the money complicit together. So who’s doing a better job for the past ten years? Obviously China is, the evidence is clear as day.

        300,000,000 middle class Chinese are now earning the equivalent of U.S. wages. $500/mo here equals $1500/mo there. Can you rent a nice 3 bedroom apt in Phoenix for $300, no. and with no concern about crime in the low rent neighborhood, no….you can here, its normal. Their expenses are far lower. They put 30% of their salaries in the banks, household bank deposits increased here $1 trillion per year from 2010 to 2011 to 2012 and will be the same for 2013. These are the realities.

        Meanwhile, drop an extra billion people in the U.S. and assuredly Washington and the states would come up with laws to encourage people not to have more babies, that’s common sense and would definitely occur. Benefits would get cut surely, common sense.

        China is collecting far less taxes than other countries and there is more off the books cash here. Tax collection levels are on the rise and the off the books cash is coming onto the books more and more as they continue to modernize. This will provide the revenue for the increasing benefits that are occuring, ie they are rolling out a modernized hospital/healthcare plan all across the country. But again, those health services are available at normal prices.

        So if the pollution or a bank crisis doesn’t kill China, and if the govt doesn’t start screwing the middle class over as in the U.S., their society is humming along well for the next 30 years…

        Moving to health care today to stay on track with the forum post, U.S. and China are the only two big nations without national healthcare until recently. China has healthcare coverage for employees and for retired employees like my mother in law, similar to Medicare/Medicaid, but its not universal. If they did implement national healthcare, the premiums/tax whatever we want to call it would be five times lower because the system pricing/billing/insurance isn’t corrupt. There are advantages to some things being controlled by the govt rather than in the hands of the capitalist cronies who screw everyone.

        Cheers, Mario

      • DK October 29, 2013, 2:38 pm

        Mario, great post.

        More thoughts on O-Care, Rick:

        http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=225369

        &&&&&&

        Thanks, Daniel. The link you’ve furnished above offers a SUPERB summary, under the headline ‘How Bad Will Obamacare Screw You’. Of all the posts so far on this topic, this is the one I would recommend first as a must-read. RA

      • gary leibowitz October 29, 2013, 5:32 pm

        False media description of pollution in China?

        http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/11471250-3b07-11e3-87fa-00144feab7de.html#axzz2j7mKMMRS

        Cost of Living comparison between China and US.

        http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=China&country2=United+States

        For food, transportation, rent China wins hands down. Now look at purchasing power. U.S. is 246% higher in purchasing power. Gasoline much higher in China as is the purchase of an apartment, which is 50% higher. China does boast a mortgage rate that is 33% lower.

        Now here is the kicker: Average monthly disposable salary is almost 400% higher in the United States (after taxes).

        Once again, there is huge trade-offs when you have a state run government. I would prefer a socialist approach myself, and am willing to pay more for it.

      • Craig October 29, 2013, 8:36 pm

        GARY,

        ” I would prefer a socialist approach myself, and am willing to pay more for it.”

        Please move immediately to one of the 120+ countries that are socialist/communist/dictatorships (your choice) take as many of your ilk and politicians…and leave the ONE country that pretends to be free! This is our only hope you have over a 100 options. Please leave and don’t post till you have been there for two years and tell us how fabulous France or Venezuela or where ever is..maybe North Korea. Please move now stop bitching about the only pretend free country! Troll feeding time is over……

      • mario cavolo October 30, 2013, 4:27 am

        Gary!!!!!!!! Must Clarify! Its all the subject of my book which will be published in North America in a few months (3 months Kindle Edition, 6 months print edition), so please have some faith on what I’m sharing here.

        Those stats are completely wrong and false! They are the publicly reported stats. Actual income in China is 2-3x higher than reported. Disposable income is 90% higher than officially reported. Man, the middle class are buying 1.5 cars per month and 80% of them are paying CASH. Etc….

        Cheers, Mario

      • Redwilldanaher October 31, 2013, 3:56 am

        Great link Dk, thanks. I am Sure that some zombies will avoid it like the cure.

      • Jason S October 31, 2013, 6:37 pm

        Craig, thank you for pulling that quote out of Gary’s arguement and stating the obvious. People like him (I have an aunt and uncle who feel the same way) are like religious fanatics who believe that everyone must convert. Yes, they have other options but they either ignore them because conversion is more important or because choosing one of the options is just too much effort.

        Gary, you are intelligent but not wise and there are too many like you out there. That is a dangerous combination and has caused common sense to be anything but common. This is not a personal attack, just a statement of fact.

    • mava October 29, 2013, 4:39 pm

      Gary, are you stupid or just trying to sound like one?

      You are going on and on about no one benefiting from this program? It is theft, first, not a “program”. Being a theft, it is not a complicated matter to point out who benefits. A looter of a theft.

      Who is a looter? Anyone has a pre-existing condition that he is now going to have covered on my buck. Because, this is not done voluntarily, but is done with violence.

      THERE IS NOTHING GOOD ABOUT THIS PROGRAM, Gary. Got this?

      Why? How do I know? Simple, if there was anything good about it, then it wouldn’t have to be a violent measure. It is shameful, really, that you still don’t understand this distinction.

      And all the other nonsense that you have mentioned is equally violent junk, not any good. According to you, we should take it a-priori that the junk you mentioned (taxes, driver licenses) is good. Based on this, you then make the argument that Obamacare, being just as stupid and violent, is also good. This being really weak way of proving your argument aside,
      you first have to support the notion that there is any non-zero benefit from any of the violent actions of the government you have already counted in our favor.

      • mario cavolo October 29, 2013, 6:29 pm

        Mava, I know there’s problems but meanwhile I suggest you’re being as ridiculously rhetorically extreme as the next guy.

        Its a tax, and it pays for something that is overpriced. Its unfair to many. It may very well be a drag on the economy in many ways. Meanwhile, others DO benefit. It pays for something that every other major country in the world has already had including pre-existing conditions, it covers people who couldn’t afford it. It doesn’t favor the rich, bravo to that. And its expensive in most of those countries too. In France, its around 15% of income. Its a tax. Its forced. Its mandatory, that’s why we can call it a govt tax. Get over it and find a semblance in your soul that at least some other human beings who needs health care including pre-existing conditions and people who can’t afford it otherwise now have it.

        Let me extend your one-sided attitude. “I don’t drive a car, why should I pay taxes so other people can drive their cars on roads I paid for? And public school too. I don’t have or want kids. Why should I pay for other people’s kids’ education? Its not fair.” And on and on and on. You live in a society. You pay taxes to pay for the governance of the society. The problem is bad governance, cronyism, unfairness in a healthcare system that is corruptly expensive. Yes yes I agree with you, but that no one benefits is simply and plainly not true.

        And what’s with the violence and looter angle? Its not violent, its just more tax. What are you getting at? A person with a pre-existing condition is a “looter”? I’m happy for that person, they were getting screwed before. You begrudge him any benefit. Certainly, you don’t have to like that it is mandatory that some of your money is given to your government to run the society and benefit others. But that’s what living in a society with a government is and there is no such thing as a society without a government. So we just hope that the people in charge of the govt do a good job or exit to the most isolated, least intrusive place you can find inside or outside of the borders in which you live. If you knew what Australia’s social benefit and employment and maternity and health care packages were, all paid for by taxes of course, you’d really blow your top! “I don’t want to pay for all of that for THOSE people!” Get over it!

        Cheers, Mario

  • Curtis October 28, 2013, 7:01 pm

    Love to see you conservatives get your panties in a bunch over what the rest of the world takes for granted – health care. The same outrage doesn’t exist for corporate welfare or warfare with corporations as the primary beneficiary.

    You can fool most of the people most of the time!

    • mava October 29, 2013, 4:26 pm

      Actually, it is you who had been fooled. I know, because I have been in your state of mind before, it is a familiar place. I also know that you would disagree, – back then, I would, for sure.

      I am not trying to move you over to “my place”. You didn’t even identify it correctly, it is all “Democrats vs. Conservatives” for you now. It’s OK. If you keep questioning everything and everyone, yourself included, you will arrive somewhere better then where you had to start.

      • Redwilldanaher October 29, 2013, 4:56 pm

        Curtis is still a zombie in the wilderness. Hopefully he can stumble into the light. Most forum people here resemble libertarians more than cons and yes corporatism sickens us. Wrong on nearly every point, Curt..

      • Rick Ackerman October 30, 2013, 8:09 pm

        Notice that if you deconstruct Curtis’ opening sentence, then deconstruct what he goes on to say, he has said…nothing — or surely nothing that deserves an argument.

        Enough time wasted on Curtis, everybody.

  • mava October 28, 2013, 6:46 pm

    Tongue in cheek, RA?
    Obama is not guilty of Obummercare?
    Don’t know about you, but as far as my own deal is Obama violently forced me to participate in his stinking communist system. I don’t want it, it is completely against my desires and best interest. You can bet he is guilty in my book.

    I agree that he is the worst president ever, worse even than Lincoln. Basically, no different than a rapist.

    And on economy. I don’t think the economy will recover. Time will tell, however.

    • Rick Ackerman October 28, 2013, 7:56 pm

      If, by ‘recover,’ you mean return to a status quo where 1) single-income households can save enough for the breadwinner to be able to retire at 65; 2) wives are not forced to work; 3) families don’t have to borrow heavily on home ‘equity’ to put their kids through college; 4) there are enough good jobs for college grads so that they don’t have to live with their parents until they’re 35. If such things are one’s criteria for ‘recovery,’ then, yes, I agree: the U.S. economy will NEVER recover.

      The recovery I said would occur was merely a nominal one, sufficient to keep Shadowstat unemployment under 30% and the part-time labor force working at subsistence levels.

      • Craig October 29, 2013, 9:08 pm

        Or Detroit….everywhere. That’s where I see things, if we are lucky.

  • Terry S October 28, 2013, 6:27 pm

    Sorry guys, ACA is not the reason for our next big Recession – try the ongoing (having never been stopped by the Administration) trading in derivatives IMHO.

    • Rick Ackerman October 28, 2013, 7:50 pm

      A vast edifice of superleveraged derivatives, nearly all of it tied to collateral that is either dubious or nonexistent, has been estimated to have a notional value of as much as $1.6 quadrillion, Terry. When this cosmic-size digital gas-bag finally deflates, it is not a piddling recession that will result, but rather the collapse of the global financial system. For now, though, we have Obamacare, steadily weakening corporate earnings, and the impending resumption of the U.S. real estate collapse to speed us on the way toward deepest recession.

  • VegasBob October 28, 2013, 10:04 am

    I think the future will be concierge medicine. The smart doctors are going to quickly abandon Obamacare and simply stop accepting any form of insurance. My 82-year old uncle who lives in a wealthy area has had a boutique doctor for years. It costs him around $2,500, paid once a year. During the year, he gets as much time with his doctor as he needs, and quick referrals to specialists.

    The overwhelming majority of Americans are not going to be able to afford a concierge doctor. They are going to be screwed big time. They will have wait times of 1-2 months just for appointments with a general practitioner and wait times of 3-6 months for appointments with specialists.

    These wait times will lengthen to the point that those who are seriously ill will be terminally ill by the time they have their appointment with the specialist.

    This is how Obamacare is going to control medical costs. You are forced to pay for useless insurance, and unless you are rich, you will just die if you actually need healthcare.

    • mary October 28, 2013, 11:10 am

      Bob, that concierge care is cheap compared to medical insurance. Expect that price to skyrocket due to Obummercare, along with everything else.

      As to the prediction that there will be long waits for mds, to that I say, “Great.” Iatrogenic disease is rampant in the US. The population as a whole will become more healthy for 3 reasons: 1. less iatrogenic disease, 2. more inexpensive alternative medicine, and 3. people will take better care of themselves because they have to. No more thinking that they can eat garbage, sit all day, stay up all night and take a little white pill make it all better.

      Studies have shown that the number people killed by big pharma and dull mds is astronomical. Add to that the studies that show that wherever there are md strikes, the death rate goes down, and you will understand my prediction. Obummercare will bankrupt us, but we’ll be healthier in the long run.

      • JimK October 28, 2013, 5:33 pm

        Right On Mary!

        This has been my chief complaint to all of my still liberal friends – Ocare is a monopoly for the patent medicine Pharmafia – free poison for even the poorest now, and paid for at 5x cost by everyone. “Poor little Angie will now be able to receive the chemotherapy she so desperately needs…”

        The positive end game you describe assumes that Codex Alimentarius law is not passed in the US, requiring Dr prescription for vitamins and herbs. As asleep as the general population has been for so long, it is when these things converge that ‘change’ starts to happen – most people will soon feel like ‘just not having it anymore’.

        Doctors, the best and brightest going into the profession, will start to realize that they were also the most gullible – it is very difficult to walk away from the accolade, the income, the prestige – it’s a long way to fall, and most people don’t have the ego-strength to face that kind of personal crisis and loss of status. Medical schools are largely sales training ‘indoctrination’ institutions. Ask most Md’s how many non-patented therapies they prescribe, or how long they studied vitamin and mineral metabolism or treatments while in medical school.

      • VegasBob October 28, 2013, 11:05 pm

        Mary, I’m not so sure the price of concierge medicine will skyrocket.

        A good concierge doctor with 500 patients at $2,500 each grosses $1,250,000 a year, and pays for 2 or 3 office staff, office expenses, some medical equipment, medical supplies, malpractice insurance, and facility expenses such as rent.

        After all those expenses, the doctor is still likely to net something over $500,000 a year and work 3-1/2 to 4 days a week.

        It is true that the $2,500 annual fee is chicken feed to someone who is wealthy or upper middle class. But it is an impossible dream for the bottom 75% of Americans on the economic food chain.