Shorting Apple, S&Ps Just Too Tempting to Pass Up

With the E-Mini S&Ps and Apple shares stealing up on potentially important Hidden Pivot targets the other day, we shorted both on the off chance that we might be catching the Mother of All Bear Rally Tops.  Of course, we’re not so crazy that we actually believe we’re going to nail the exact top of a bear rally that is now well into its fourth year. Still, it’s great fun to try, especially if you’re a permabear who believes, as we do, that one of these days stocks are going to take a plunge so nasty that it will make the 1987 Crash look like a picnic.  Regardless of whether we’re right or dead wrong, however, we expect to make money on these trades. The trick is to catch a “a top,” if not “The Top,”  and to take a small partial profit right away if possible. This helps build a risk cushion if our short whips around and heads higher, as happens so often.  But it also allows us to book at least a small gain if we should eventually be forced to bail out just above where we got in.  Rather than make bold claims about how often we succeed at this, we’d suggest asking subscribers yourself.  Click here for a free trial subscription that will give you a week’s access to the Rick’s Picks chat room, which attracts experienced traders and ‘Pivoteers’ from around the world 24/7.

So how did yesterday’s two trades against-the-trend work out?  Not too badly, actually.  Although the Apple short was stopped out for a small loss because of a Hidden Pivot miscalculation (more on that below), at the final bell subscribers who followed the futures recommendation were still short the E-Mini with a paper profit of more than $400 per contract.  Earlier, we’d advised them to get short at a 1409.00 target derived from Hidden Pivot Analysis. The target had been a while in coming, since we’d flagged it in the newsletter more than a week ago.  But we were ready to pounce yesterday when it was finally hit, offering contracts short at 1409.00 with a stop-loss at 1410.25.  The micro-tight, 1.25-point stop-loss carried a theoretical risk of $62.50, which is as much as we ever advise for trades, even long-termers, in this vehicle.  As it happened, a stop-loss as tight as three ticks (i.e.,  0.75 points, or $37.50 of theoretical risk per contract) would have held, since the futures went no higher on Monday than 1409.50.  After apexing there, the September E-Mini S&P fell to a subsequent low of 1397.25, representing a theoretical gain thus far of $575 per contract.  In practice, the paper gain could be even higher for some subscribers, since we advised them via an intraday bulletin to cover half of the initial short position when the futures were trading around 1404.00.  For us, conservative, risk-averse play is standard operating procedure on both long and short trades – but especially on shorts, since odds will always be against hitting a major top on a given day.

Calendar Spreading ‘Directional’ Plays

Concerning the short in Apple, based on a Hidden Pivot rally target at 637.71, we told subscribers in an intraday bulletin to initiate the trade at 637.59, stop 638.05. (Alternatively, they could have bought far-out-of-the-money put spreads at the 620 strike – one of our favorite tactics for significantly reducing the risk of “directional” plays).  A 46-cent stop-loss may sound too tight for a stock that has swung as much as $40 in a day, but it was actually somewhat wider than we usually advise, since it had been a while since we last suggested a trade in Apple. In the actual event, the stock topped at exactly 638.61 — 90 cents above our initial target — after rallying nearly $9 from the previous day’s close.  On recalculating the target, however, we discovered an error that when corrected shifted it to 639.29, or 68 cents above the actual top. Oh well. Fortunately, there will always be another chance to short The Mother of All Tops – or, for that matter, to get long enroute to it if we can control the entry risk tightly enough.

***

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  • Jill August 17, 2012, 4:46 am

    “Wall street wants Romney…”

    Not so. No matter which major party candidate wins, Wall Street wins the election.

    • bc August 17, 2012, 6:17 am

      Really starting to appreciate this board. Lots of smart people. And then…depression.

    • mario August 19, 2012, 4:51 am

      Absolutely the point Jill!

  • bc August 17, 2012, 3:14 am

    Watch the long bond and watch the Fed’s response if rates continue creeping up. The long bond rate is the market’s best estimate of what the short rate (the only one under Fed control) sequence will look like out to the long term. This is the real trap we are in. If the Fed credibly moves to reflate asset prices (something they are accused of but not really doing) the long bond rate will climb and financials, cities, pensions, insurers, and so on will collapse as their collateral vaporises. If they don’t reflate our debt deflation continues. Damned if they do and damned if they don’t. Before the election their hands are tied. Wall street wants Romney and they can induce a financial crisis if they think it will help.

  • bc August 16, 2012, 10:26 pm

    Well, one of us is going to be wiped out. I’m short out the wazoo 3x myself, financials and small caps. OTOH I own a middling size capital equipment multinational firm myself, the short position I view as a hedge (and a logical use of my IRA trapped funds). Good luck Gary, and I admit I’m fighting the Fed, usually a big no-no. I really mean the good luck part too, because that means my equipment business-the bulk of my interests- will soar.

    • gary leibowitz August 17, 2012, 12:50 am

      Hope you make money and I suspect you should very soon. Don’t see it as a big drop. over 5 percent, and not long lived.

      I am not currently in the long bet yet. Either SPX 1424 gets taken out on a given close, or we have a drop where the SPX should not go below 1340. Impatiently waiting to pull the trigger. I would rather be late and wait for my targets than to anticipate the next move. In the past I have pulled the trigger too soon. Hope that trend stops.

  • gary leibowitz August 16, 2012, 4:00 pm

    Forget about stimulus or a crash. I mean forgetaboutit!

    Not going to happen. The recent data, especially on housing is showing a move off th bottom in every category. In fact builing permits just hit a 4 year high.
    there is no way the economy faulters if housing is coming on this strong.

    I now expect the recent consolidation to be a minor drop, if that. We will be going into the next and I believe last leg up. it will be big. I expect a 15 percent move within 6 month time.

    Why does everyone on this board ignores economically sensitive data? Why do you assume government debt has to immediately cause the economy to grind to a halt?

    We might see a drop when Uncle Ben announces no stimulus plans. It will be fairly shallow and short lived based on how the domstic economy is gaining steam.

    So, my 8 month mantra of an economic “sweet spot” this year is finally coming together.

    • gary leibowitz August 16, 2012, 4:32 pm

      I would suggest that instead of looking for opportunities to short, you do the opposite.

      The old notion that you don’t fight the trend and Fed is still true today. I believe the markets usually telegraph that a big move down is coming weeks before it actually happens. This recent consolidation is normal after such a long up move. In fact I find it hard to understand why AAPL was singled out over the last few months as a crash candidate. It had a steep rise for a long period of time, followed by consolidation. That alone is not grounds to short. In fact the P/E ratio was staying steady all that time.

    • gary leibowitz August 16, 2012, 5:56 pm

      A good candidate to short – INTC
      Chart looks suspect and Buffett sold all his holdings last month, 7.7 million.

    • gary leibowitz August 16, 2012, 6:38 pm

      a good long position: GOLD If equities fly high, so will gold. The charts beg for a breakout in Gold.

    • gary leibowitz August 16, 2012, 8:57 pm

      I do love talking to myself:

      “Merkel Says Germany Backs Draghi’s ECB Aid Conditionality”

      Yes Germany flinched.

      It is going to be painful waiting for this sucka to implode. I wonder what the great market timers are saying about our stock market’s immediate future.

      On the next drop I buy the 3X hedge funds for an upside in both stocks and gold. If there is not drop at the critical level of 1424 on the SPX I go in anyway.

    • Rusty August 16, 2012, 10:18 pm

      I read most of what you write. I agree most of the DOW is making money, I’m not sure price discovery is functioning correctly with ZIRP in place.

      Please humor me as I am sort of dense. I want five bullet points how the economy is “gaining steam” for all 340 MM Americans; including a realistic unemployment number and under employment number. Thanks.

    • gary leibowitz August 17, 2012, 12:44 am

      Rusty

      First off the current situation with unemployed can stay unemployed and not cause deterioration in future numbers. The health of the consumer is not very well defined since they can once again start borrowing to compensate for lower wages, or growth below trend. ZIPR will cause fixed income people to lose. No question. I am only talking about the next 6 months of corporate profits. It should do very well.

      Housing is the number one drag. It is showing strenght in every segment, price stability or increases by region, future home purchases zooming (permits), delinquencies down, refinancing this year at a huge clip.

      Don’t get me wrong. I am not talking about sustainability. I am talking about a trading environment that should show great corp. earnings for 2 quarters or so. Once the EU numbers start coming back positiver, they already have with France and Germany, the EU contagion has been suppressed.

      Bullet points:
      1 – Permits highest in 4 years.
      2 – Germany and France showing GDP growth again.
      3- EU adapted the FED bond buying polcy and Germany concede on austerity measures.
      4 – Recent earnings announcement were very good, case in point CISCO.
      5 – Q’s are leading the parade upwards.
      6- Huge short interest.
      7 – Recent data showed a huge productivity gain from corporations this last quarter. this means low wage and benefit costs, while maintaining their current work force.
      8 – No negative employment numbers for many months. Not getting worse.
      9 – Earnings multiple still on the conservative side. no frothy stock prices.
      10 – election year.
      11 – domestic retail numbers rebounding.
      12 – No major disruption of OIL (yet).

      Just to name a few off the top of my head.

    • Rusty August 17, 2012, 5:22 am

      Gary-
      I appreciate your going to the trouble of answering my question. With the limitation of “sustainability”, “6 months”, and number 10, I see what you mean. Number 8 is horse puckey. Read the work of John Williams of Shadow Stats. Number 12 is iffy, because pump pain is close. Nobody gets elected with pump pain. You are correct on 4 and 9. With the word “sustainability” involved I seems to me you aren’t totally drinking the recovery Kool-aid.
      What I was getting at with price discovery in the face of ZIRP is certain issues are being chased to very overbought. Example for now is LO and RAI. I just don’t see much upside as these are run up by those hungry for yield. I have owned both over the years and you can get blowtorched by news or new law suit.In light of bc’s post below these issues are rate sensitive. Just one example.
      The discussion of the ’87 Crash the other day, brings another question. Did you sense the ’08 Crashes? I did not (said I was dense) but thought they were more gut wrenching than ’87. Shortly before TARP was passed, that day of crashing was scary for me. Did have gold so figured I might make it. Did buy silver when it got stupid. Bought small oil at ridiculous price, since sold.
      I could post lots of bearish stuff but I’m sure you know. I firmly believe number 8 is bogus, but that isn’t your fault.
      What I’m gathering is window dressing (other than DOW earnings to wit: CSCO) for the election and then all bets are off. Correct me if I see it wrong.
      I wonder why I am here. I haven’t done a trade in 3 weeks. I sense overbought and am holding cash to buy right issues at the right time.
      Thanks,
      Rus

    • Rusty August 17, 2012, 5:32 am

      Let me add, in my market at least, the RNC is going full tilt on the economy and jobs.

  • RickJ August 15, 2012, 8:58 pm

    While agreeing that many things should logically happen, I fear that logic and fundamentals are no longer the primary driver of the markets, but rather, the edict of the new unseen hand and its agents.
    I remember how logical it seemed in the early 80`s to short Chrysler, GM and a Texas Bank, but the aid of the taxpayer created losses for me in that endeavor.
    I hold only Canadian gold bullion funds (no etfs) and gold shares in my brokerage accounts. I am now looking for an exit strategy for up to half that is there before October. I fear that one day my holdings will amount to nothing but a source of capital for counterfeiters and fraudsters.

  • VLD August 15, 2012, 8:06 pm

    the only bullish tech indicator I know of today, is the largest short position in usa equities in 5 years. this almost always leads to large rallies. and I mentioned this last week, here.

    however, on the other hand,
    there are MANY bearish indicators currently at play,
    including (so far) the bullish non-confirmation of a upmove above 1422 spx, and the more days the spx continues to grind against that prior top without breaking, the more bearish the situation gets.

    the vix touched 15 this week,
    and that is an area from where many volatility rallies have occured, since it indicates great complacency by bulls, that there is no danger of a sudden drop, so this is very bearish.

    additionally (and contradicting the current very large short position, strangely enough) is that
    the cboe equity puts/calls ratio, fell to .60 last week (6puts/10calls),
    further indicating greater complacency on the part of bulls, and last time ratio came this low (.58) was on may 1, 2012 top, the very day the spx began it’s 5 week, near 10% slide “correction.”

    also, dow theory (around for over 100 years)
    still has a bearish non-confirmation from the still lagging dj transports (since they failed to set a new high along with dji, at the prior high this year), so dow theory proponents are still holding on to a bear market signal, ever since may 1, 2012 top.

    traditional chart analysis also shows a very bearish large ‘bear-flag’
    that has been perfectly created over the last 2 months on the spx with 2 perfect parallel rising trend lines(higher highs and higher lows, and as opposed to what some people think here, this is bearish and not bullish, plus the bigger the ‘bear-flag’ is, the bigger the downward breakdown will be);
    so unless there is a quick pop up above 1422 spx, breaking the bear-flag soon, this indicates a dropping market for at least as long a time, as the bear-flag’s time of 2 months, to find new yearly lows.

    3 other corroborating tech factors:
    momentum is fast waning,
    daily market breath is still very bad (stocks up/stocks down),
    up vol./down vol. is also bad
    (all compared to historical standards),
    and all 3 indicate a bear big down leg is straight ahead.

    also, sentiment-wise, the AAII, the assoc. of american “individual” investors
    (and I place a quotation on “individual”, because these dudes nearly ALWAYS get it wrong),
    have been bearish, non-stop, for a very long time, 13 weeks exactly,
    and guess what: they finally turned bullish this past week—
    so this is another important sign of an equities major top.

    I read of several other bear tech signals currently at play, however, this is enough.

    so it looks like, from multiples of important tech and sentiment tried-and-true indicators,
    that the bear market should continue very soon, in days at most.

    yet, there is that very large short position at play, and IMO,
    “they” (whomever they are) that convinced, that 1422 spx won’t break.

    however, if “da boyz” decide to put full-pedal-to-the-metal,
    and somehow manage to push overnight the spx futures to above 1423
    (by some boyz-created b.s. “world-is-saved-again fantastic news”),
    it’s going to trigger a major squirting shot up the following morning, in panicked short-covering;
    a rally that shoot as high as 50 spx points, IMO, from huge number of trapped shorts.

    so it will be interesting to observe,
    just how powerful “da boyz” really are,
    to move markets overnight, with their trickery and setups.
    with, of course, all the Fed billions $ they constantly “borrow” to trade with, at 0% interest.

    • VLD August 15, 2012, 11:25 pm

      a different idea occured to me, after I wrote all the bearish tech/sentiment above.

      what if large current short position, biggest in 5 years, were ‘da boyz’– themselves?

      what if there are, 1 or more, UNavoidable events, that are, imminently forthcoming?

      If you want to live, that is. for as ‘lucifer’s hammer’ says, ‘those that were lucky, died early.’

      for example, my favorite one, I’ve written about here, endlessly: 100% greek default?

      what if greece wants out of eu, because they refuse to pay even 1 euro, of their debt?

      implications?
      spain? italy? portugal? southern europeans… ah, what do you do with them.

      near all current usa indicators are negative, so: are ‘da boyz’, THE big shorters?

      when something is unavoidable, it’s better to rape it, than to lament, loss of control.

      so will greece (finally) give a 100% euro debt haircut next week? back to drachma?

      and start big banks domino collapse? like I told you turkeys, read ‘lucifer’s hammer.’

      interesting though, for ra, is that it’s last usa govt. stronghold, was in colorado.

    • Rusty August 16, 2012, 12:13 am

      Hey man, ole atom dumb monkey Rusty here. I will provide links if you want but read Jim Sinclair for the last two days regarding DRS registration.

      For me this http://silversenator2012.blogspot.com/2012/08/httpwwwinfowarscomsocial-security.html coupled with Bonds, and personal observation, tells me somebody with much more smarts than me, knows something is up.

    • Rusty August 16, 2012, 12:26 am

      If Sinclair is crazy how about this- http://www.dailypaul.com/63608/who-is-cede-company lots of homework to play with.

    • Rusty August 16, 2012, 12:34 am

      Think it’s all urban legend? Please refer to Roman Numeral 111. http://www.fdic.gov/bank/individual/failed/firstcomm_nm.html

      Ask yourself why Cede would have large deposits in Taos, New Mexico, an out of the way place (beautiful scenery though) with a population of 10K. Lucifers Hammer? Could be.

    • VLD August 16, 2012, 12:57 am

      rus, I like all bullet-related stories, for I think bullet buys will be soon govt-regulated everywhere in world, even more than guns; since they are easier and smaller to control, and guns are worthless without them, for most people don’t have ability or equipment to make bullets. Ergo, stock up on many thousands of bullets, IMO, they’ll be worth more than gold one day, while the govt. has not shut their sale down. Bullets are the greatest barter item of the next decade, IMO. But I agree, the most trapped humans on earth, are usa people; the 21st century’s, top sheeple. get armed, get loaded, get water source, stocked food, secluded shelter, IMO, seeds, arable land, work animals. for when big banks close their doors, permanently, as they certainly, unavoidably will, pandemonium will rule everywhere, since 90%+ usa people will not be prepared, for that currently supposedly-laughable, ‘blackswan’ possibility; yet, these 90%+ people, want to eat, too. so once this occurs, the greatest danger, even worse than govt., will be unprepared hungry neighbors, or roaming hungry bands. and very similar to ‘lucifer’s hammer.’

    • Rusty August 16, 2012, 1:05 am

      Thank you. .308 works for me. Please study Cede if you want. I don’t think any of us have a damn thing, unless they have elected and police on the payroll.

    • Rusty August 16, 2012, 1:11 am

      I need to re-read Lucifers Hammer. I recall my college room mate liked to quote a passage in the book. Something like, “you know it’s all over when you are in four wheel drive, driving across the number 3 green, at the Los Angeles Country Club, to escape.”

    • VLD August 16, 2012, 2:30 am

      rus, I don’t know who cede is, not do I give a damn.
      I am on other side of planet; for I’d rather be dead,
      than be in your country, as I consider you all fkkd.

      like I said before, many times: every man for himself.
      think for your own self. are there ‘inner party’ people everywhere?
      that entice you with ‘let’s band together, we are the revolutionaries?’ yes.
      even ra could be one. or even dumb old fkk ron paul? yes. he’s perfect.

      bottomline? trust no one but your own self. not me. not ra. not ron paul.

      trust only your self. because no one else, is going to dig you out, of coming sh-t.

    • Rusty August 16, 2012, 5:59 am

      Trust a few, not many, never alone http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RTxcurOXNo

  • bc August 15, 2012, 6:56 pm

    Meanwhile with very little notice from anyone, the long Tbill is drooping evermore below trend. Dare I say the trend toward ever lower rates is breaking? I think so.
    Hmm. Higher rates. What might that do to markets? Time to crack my Bible and bone up on that End of Days part. Let’s just hope there’s still a window we shorts can take our winning tickets to when the dust settles.

    • Rick Ackerman August 15, 2012, 8:18 pm

      A very disturbing trend indeed, bc. When the September T-Bond breached last May’s 146^04 low this morning, it generated the first bearish impulse leg we’ve seen on the daily chart in nearly a year. This is a cautionary sign, and we’ll be watching in the days ahead for a possible bearish confirmation in charts of lesser degree.

  • PhotoRadarScam August 15, 2012, 6:03 pm

    The “powers that be” will not allow a market crash prior to the election. Afterwards, however…

    But there are always going to be opportunities to take advantages of small pullbacks and advances using the HP method.

  • fallingman August 15, 2012, 5:53 pm

    Gary, I’ve been trading options since 1979. I’m a former options broker.

    Care to make any more guesses genius?

    • gary leibowitz August 15, 2012, 6:07 pm

      So let me get this straight, your hostile attitude must be because you expected armageddon for 4 years now.
      You obviouly don’t want to hear my take on this bull run.

      Now since you did place options you myust have made a killing. yes? Am I wrong in assuming the return was 1,000 to 1? Was I wriong in assuming individulas did not participate in Index Options? as I wrong that insurance companies used it almost exclusively and didn’t price any premiums on thos best?

      Now lets see if YOU can answer MY questions clearly.

      BTW, 1987 I wasn’t playing the markets much, but did have my folks exit their stock positions. In 2000 and 2008 made good money, but like you I expected short term recoveries and kept pissing it away betting on the next “flash crash”. If my assumptions are wrong than I apologize in advance. I assume your demeanor is one of frustration. Try not to take it out on me. I have nothing to do with how the market behaves.

    • Chuck August 15, 2012, 7:32 pm

      why doesn’t anyone think that this ‘bear squeeze’ as it seems to be called is really the current administration playing footsie with wall street – propping up the market with ‘pretend and extend’?? that game seems to be running it’s course – wonder if the truth will come out in the end (if ppl are smart enough to see that the current emperor is in fact not wearing any clothes).

    • fallingman August 15, 2012, 8:11 pm

      Easy big boy. You’re getting a little testy.

      Just pointing out your proclivity to make unsupportable statements.

      Gary, unlike you, I have no idea what the market’s going to do. I trade spreads that don’t rely much on directionality. I just let the coins clink into the till. I’m not frustrated. Amazed sometimes, it’s true, but my responses have nothing to do with whatever your market stance is. I couldn’t care less.

      I didn’t make squat off the crash in 87, because I was busy taking care of my father who had metastasized prostate cancer. Couldn’t concentrate on trading. I felt lucky to have even sidestepped the crash. That said, I’ll stack my options trading track record up against just about anyone’s.

      By the way, just because the trading of index options wasn’t widespread the trading of stock specific options certainly was. I know a couple of people who were smart enough to be holding puts on some big names. They did make out like bandits.

      And my hostile attitude is because I really dislike you and find most of the stuff you say absurd. No need to make it more complicated than that.

      But, you know what, I’m the dope for even responding. Say whatever you will. I’ll just let it float in the ether till the unpleasantness dissipates.

    • VLD August 16, 2012, 12:06 am

      fallingman, I made a few thou in the day of the oct 1987 crash. back then, a few thou were a lot of money for me.

      how did I do it. simple. I was convinced black monday would occur as a certainty, based on many factors, but specially that week before black monday ’87 (a 22.5% 1-day fall, one of the best ever falls, near identical to oct. ’29), the week before, the market fell around 15%-20% in only 5 days, can’t remember exact. and I watched a tv show I watched every friday, ‘weekly business report’, I think it was called, every friday night, at est 1900hr pm. it was a roundtable of several stockmarket ‘experts’, some were regulars, some only came a few times. but there was 1 guy I always listened to, and his name was martin weiss, you might know him. he was a young guy back then, late 30’s, I think, and his dad had been a stockmarket veteran, also. and this guy martin weiss, was a belt-and-suspenders-type, if you know what that means. and what he said, about next monday, was one of most extraordinary things I have ever seen in the usa boobtube. for mostly everybody else in roundtable discussion, were either neutral, or mildly bearish, or mildly bullish, for following week, which was their job, to predict.

      however, martin weiss, he looked really bad, like I had never seen him before, he looked like he was going to throw up, and die right there. he said (paraphrasing loosely, my own words): “monday is going to be a nightmare. everyone over the weekend is going to want to get out at the same time, at the opening bell. monday will be a full collapse.”

      well, I agreed instantly, I already felt it in my blood, 100% certain. I was at that time, lower middle class, had a decent 9-18hr job in another trade, and I had a few thousand in the bank, and I said fkk it, I placed all my savings, all of it, on monday morning BUYS of stocks (I had a fullcharge broker ahole I knew, met him on the weekend, we were both young drunkards in bars then, looking for young easy ho’s).

      but—I placed all my 5 stock BUYS, at HALF he price they closed on friday, which made my stockbroker crazy buddy, laugh like crazy, and he said, ‘hey, I only waste my time doing this for you, fellow perv bud.’

      to make a long story short—by mid-day oct crash monday, I had bought 4 out of 5 BLUEchips stocks, at HALF their price, of prior friday. simple. there were no buyers! everybody was placing in panic ‘market sell’ orders, and there was I, with my few thou, buying, at HALF price.

      and I got angry with my fellow drunkard broker bud, said: ‘hey! why the fah didn’t I get all 5 orders filled?” and he said: “are you crazy? it was pandemonium out there monday, you are lucky you got 4 out of 5 filled, who the hell knows where your last order went to or got lost!” hahahaha. I had to laugh. and he told me something amazing, I never forgot: “I got this crazy old woman that’s a veteran of markets, that almost always loses, crazy as hell, but she put a $400 dollar bet on a market put on friday, and guess what? the crazy old cackling whore turn her $400 put in only one day, into $16,000 dollars!! a 4,000% return in 1 day!! and the old cackling whore sold by day’s end, kept it all!

      I sold all my 4 stock positions by next day tuesday, for their was a violent upward rebound next morning, as I expected, and I made, about 3 thou in 1 day, a lot of money for me, then. but I did not trust that market, it was crazy, so I sold, before it fell again. but it never did, interestingly.

  • fallingman August 15, 2012, 4:18 pm

    Unexpected by whom? I was out based on the warnings of several people. You want names?

    So, let me get this straight. You didn’t see the crash coming in 1987, but you’re willing to opine that we won’t see another one anytime soon. That’s rich.

    Did you see 2000-2002 coming? How about 2007-2008? Oh god, don’t bother to answer. We’ll get some incoherent twaddle, and I’ve had all I can take of that.

    By the way B, ’87 may look like nuthin’ in hindsight, but it was a mutha.

    • gary leibowitz August 15, 2012, 5:10 pm

      Unexpected by most. I actually got my parents out one month before the crash. I didn’t understand options at the time. Too bad. The few that did act on their gut feeling, and bet with options, made a killing. In fact the premiums were so miniscule you could have made 1,000 times your money.

    • gary leibowitz August 15, 2012, 5:14 pm

      Did YOU bet options against the possible crash?
      I bet not. It wasn’t widely used at the time, and only by insurance companies.

    • Rusty August 16, 2012, 12:04 am

      No disrespect intended; but I thought Mary Farrell was about the only major player to sniff out the 1987 Crash. Obviously many expert chartists were caught “off sides.” I didn’t see it coming; but bought XOM near the bottom, which I still own to this day.

    • fallingman August 16, 2012, 4:54 am

      Mark Skousen, Jim Stack, and Marc Faber all made clear calls.

    • Rusty August 16, 2012, 5:52 am

      Thanks, I had never heard Jim Stack predicted the crash. I had never heard of Skousen or Faber in ’87.

  • gary leibowitz August 15, 2012, 3:22 pm

    I have a fibonacci turn date of the 17th. I too expect a drop soon. I would not give much credence to “the” top though. An 8 to 10 percent drop would suit everyone just fine.

  • Benjamin August 15, 2012, 2:05 pm

    Sort of O/T, but since it seems slow around here this morning…

    “Still, it’s great fun to try, especially if you’re a permabear who believes, as we do, that one of these days stocks are going to take a plunge so nasty that it will make the 1987 Crash look like a picnic.”

    Wasn’t the 1987 dive a picnic, though?

    http://stockcharts.com/freecharts/historical/djia1900.html

    Even at the time it occured, it didn’t look so grand a tumble. It looks worse around 1975, but at the time, the 87 one was being announed as the greatest dive since the Big One. So is/was ’87 just hype?

    • gary leibowitz August 15, 2012, 3:20 pm

      87 was a big plunge. Very unexpected with very little hedging by individuals. Don’t think we will see that type of drop for a long time to come. The move from 82 to 87 was spectacular. Felt like it could go on forever. The recovery was just as dramatic.

    • Benjamin August 16, 2012, 10:48 am

      My thanks to those who replied. Actually, it didn’t occur to me to use this here internet to just look it up myself (like I do for everything else. Doh!), but when it did, I spent the better part of the day reading about the ’87 crash, as well as others. It is now clear to me why it is considered as bad as it was.

  • DK August 15, 2012, 5:57 am

    Rick,
    Thanks to you I was able to nail Apple’s last decline and rode it down to $531 in mid May (within about $1 of the actual low which I believe was $530 and a dime or so). Admittedly, I was a little late, but I still managed to get a good $70 of downside. Thank you again for sharing your HP system and experience.

    • Rick Ackerman August 15, 2012, 8:10 pm

      Always grateful for the feedback, DK, and truly pleased to hear that you profited from my technical forecasts.