Rising Asia Will Soften West’s Economic Decline

[From his new headquarters in a fashionable district of Shanghai, our friend and frequent contributor Mario Cavolo, a communications consultant, recently surveyed the passing parade.  Bullish thoughts on the global economy ensued. For, who can doubt that the dawning Asian Century will help balance out the difficulties that seem likely to hobble the economies of the West? For an uplifting, long-term view with a global perspective, read his essay below. RA]

Does it not occur to any pessimist that a massive region of the world is expanding, not contracting, and that this statistical fact portends well for the future demand of all “stuff” across the globe? While assuredly not discounting disturbing global financial and economic pressures, pessimists and permabears seem to relish discounting the powerful, upward expansionary forces across the global economy that also clearly exist.

Here in Shanghai, I now sit in the new upper middle class mall called Kerry Parkside, where we have a marketing location for our various services. Forget the fact that prices are annoyingly high and that the mall is still packed on the weekends. Let’s consider right now only of this part of the story which gives us a glimpse of the future:

Observing every family that enters this mall, every woman I see is either with a baby/toddler in tote or pregnant. Did I say “every”? Apologies. Of course not, and I readily confess such an exaggeration. Yet it boggles my mind to note how many pregnant women and under-three-year-olds are here, appearing very much as the rule, not the exception. The same exact observation is easily made across China’s twenty or so major urban centers, now totaling a population well over 300 million family dwellers.

Ladies and gentlemen, embrace and gladly welcome the greatest baby boom in history, unprecedented in world history, size and scope,  far beyond America’s relatively miniscule  post-war baby boom. Similar stories of expansion in Latin America also tell the global story. They will need to consume plenty of “stuff,” is that correct? There will be a resulting demand for response to the challenges their presence on the globe creates — more services, more solutions, more needs, more issues, more responses, more infrastructure, more food, more investment, more issues, more solutions, more and more demand of everything for more and more people.

Overbuilt?  Hardly…

You say China’s infrastructure is overbuilt? Tell that to an IT industry with more than 900 million mobile users, or to an automotive industry that is cranking out one million cars per month for sale domestically and to the rest of the world. Tell me all those roads somehow don’t need to be built? How can one reach such a naive, short-sighted conclusion? Similar stories emanate from India and Latin America, do they not?

To which we next hear the “they already over-expanded and overbuilt” argument. Once again, short-sighted. What timeframe are you referring to? See past Wall Street’s shameful focus on the quarterly earnings and set your sights instead on building a country for the long-term future;  for 40 million cars that will be coming; for an additional 200 million urban workers, and families who will need a place to live in the few supposed “ghost towns” that are often wrongly associated with the collapse of the Chinese real estate market.  Let us also digress a moment to note very similar stories of expansion across Asia, across the other BRIC emerging economies, so as to not overplay the China-centric view of these matters.

A Vast Grey Market

America spent the last 70 years extending its dominion over all things cultural and financial. Now it is China’s turn. China is very different for reasons that are easy to both observe and measure, exhibiting realities that Westerners too easily forget or simply cannot comprehend.  Every scary report about municipal debt, for one, is offset by uncounted  $ trillions in China’s grey market economy, well-document by a recent 2011 Credit Suisse report. Do we overlook this? Not when we realize that 90% of Chinese own their homes, most of them mortgage-free. Not when we realize that amongst those one million shiny new cars hitting the road, the vast majority have been purchased with cash. Do you think that the majority of those cars are pricey $100,000 Mercedes Benzes, Audis or BMWs – or are they $12,000 to  $25,000 models being purchased by the  middle class?  You know the answer, and yet it’s hard to swallow it because here in China, when talking with a typical, first time, middle-class car buyer, we ask, “Nice, how much did you pay for your new car?” In the West, our first question is, “What’s your monthly payment?” Giggle.

Global Troubles Loom

Indeed, as Rick’s Picks editor Rick Ackerman sometimes reminds us, these newly arrived citizens of the world will be paying higher and higher prices for the future goods and services they are consuming. That much is true, and inflation over decades is nothing new.  However, I would argue that the world’s sovereign financial problems will be managed in a way that allows inflation to continue as a release valve and that, furthermore, the doomsday scenario is relative rather than absolute (as in, “The banking system must collapse!”).  Clearly, it is relatively worse for the West at the end of a 60-year economic cycle, compounded by overreaching, elitist banking lunacy and unbridled Wall Street corruption. And yet, such factors are unlikely to have as much of an impact on emerging Asian and Latin American regions thanks to their fundamentally rising, expanding societies.

One can therefore be certain that as Europe and America deal with their appalling financial issues, China over the next several decades will extend its cultural and financial influence in the way that America’s postwar expansion did over a period of 70 years. In either case, we must live with outcomes, whether good or bad.

China May Say Adios

There is one other more, dire possibility to ponder that China’s leaders may ultimately choose as they have in the past.  If the West truly implodes, China, well able to flourish economically on its own, may forego global bargain-hunting and shut its doors, isolating itself as the Middle Kingdom once again.  Considering how far the country’s political and economic reach has grown to date, that is possible but not likely. As a telling indicator, we must note that over the past two years, the business environment for foreign companies has deteriorated and become less welcoming.

For the past 50 years, the West has held sway economically. Now there will be a painful re-balancing across the globe, with the West’s economic strength leaching into a rising Asia led by China. Meanwhile, we can easily agree that Rick Ackerman is right — that the next ten years, or perhaps much sooner, could see a mind-boggling financial upheaval caused by a collapsing financial system. But that is still a very short-term view. Perhaps it is an opportunistic way of seeing things for nimble traders, bond vigilantes, elitist bankers, hedge funds and other short-termers exhibiting the best and worst attributes of the capitalist system simultaneously. Yet, recovery and restructuring will follow, built on the demand of the very real, unprecedented boom across the powerful, emerging economies of which I speak.

***

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  • max lopez June 19, 2012, 1:29 am

    well i live in an emergent economy. still 3 rd world in many respects.. but the ever present usa centric point of view may be blinding many to the obvious truth.
    empires rise and fall… economies expand and contract. some on an increaseing basis. some on decreaseing.

    it doesnt seem to me to hard to see the usa and europe are probably on the 16th of 18 holes(golf anology) and china and other emergant economies are maybe on the second hole…. keep´it simple.

  • mario June 18, 2012, 3:55 am

    Hi Guys…just a quick note, there are several posts still for me to reply to and will, just busy as hell and when I’m out ans about replying from my smartphone keyboard, its too difficult to type out longer replies. For yourvpatiencr. Thanks… Mario

  • Cam Fitzgerald June 17, 2012, 11:11 pm

    Well, I think Mario has finally given up. He sure is quiet this weekend. The world carries on though and troubles continue to mount in China. Stories abound but here are two I liked. Both written by the same guy and the first offers a technical viewpoint.

    Ominous Signs out of China
    http://humblestudentofthemarkets.blogspot.ca/2012/06/ominous-signs-from-china.html

    And here is my favourite. It talks about the construction of the worlds tallest building planned by a Chinese company who claim they will erect it in just 90 days flat!!!! Wow. Never been done before. And according to analyst Cam Hui, it is a signal to get the hell out of Dodge because as skyscrapers and construction go, this indicator is a doozy.

    The Ultimate Contrarian Sell Signal –Seeking Alpha
    http://seekingalpha.com/article/663821-the-ultimate-contrarian-sell-signal-for-china

  • Mark Uzick June 17, 2012, 5:34 pm

    Gary: The Q’s since I see them going up first and fast.
    The SPX would be just as good. Reading the political jargon I can’t see a surprise ending. A relief rally is most likely. Not sure it is sustainable but for a short bet it looks like the odds on favorite.

    Theoretically, the USA markets should be bearish until September. The only reason to buy now is the expectation of QE3.

    I’ve made some money with GOOG and AMZ puts; and I was tempted to and could have made some more each time they bounced back, but the specter of fed manipulation has made me very skittish.

    What effect do you think QE3 would have on long term treasuries? After making profits on TBT puts, I’ve switched to TBT calls, but I’m worried that I may be walking into a fed trap.

  • Benjamin June 15, 2012, 8:21 pm

    I’ve decided to repost the following quote here. Mario Cavolo June 15, 2012 at 7:07 am…

    “[Cam], as Ben, also completely ignored in my further replies to acknowledge the expected reality by GS, by the UN, by McKinsey, by realistic first hand observations of real, live expansion of consumption. ”

    Mario, I didn’t say anything in regard to growth in consumption. All I did was point out that the gender disparity among the Chinese exists and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. It’s a gender disparity, not a full-blown crisis in reproductive capacity. It should therefore go without saying that that needn’t cast any doubt on your sales pitch (other than the assertion that it will “soften” the fall of the U.S.). Consumption among the Chinese needn’t and probably won’t suffer. Nor will it keep empty buildings/cities, empty.

    Since you don’t understand what I meant by the Achilles Heel of China, I reiterate what I clearly said in my very first post: The burden of one governments evil and ineptitude was easily passed on to those countries whose governments have sworn fealty to the NWO. More to the point, the U.S. made itself quite unfriendly to natural resource development and other industry and business, so that Chinese officialdom could have the means to apply the mass-urbanization bandage to their persistent population and demographic woes.

    That’s the situation, to date. Only from there do I speculate that the gender imbalance will continue to haunt China and, because globalization is so darned important, the world. And it’s perfectly legitimate to assume that a rebalancing will be a long time in the making and that it will probably “correct” in yet another disaterous way. Why? Because such is the price to pay for the misuse of government, as an “engineer of solutions” rather than as a protector (of borders, rights, and property).

    But don’t worry, Mario. You’ll get to be up to 50% right for some length of time. You’ll get to make money off the ongoing troubles. And you might even pass on before the night arrives.

    It’s funny how much we agree on, isn’t it? If you weren’t so much like a rabid pitbull on bath salts in defending the polished terds, perhaps this discourse could’ve been shorter and more civil.

    • mario June 16, 2012, 3:32 am

      Thank you Ben.

      Touche’ fine sir.

      Mario

    • Benjamin June 16, 2012, 6:55 am

      That’s alright, Mario. I started off too bluntly, so I’ll take my share of the blame for that earlier mess. Guess I need refresher course on how to be more gentlemanly.

      Well, take care!

  • gary leibowitz June 15, 2012, 5:39 pm

    Looking for surprise moves, I see no surprise in the outcome of Greek elections. No matter who wins they pledge to stay in the EU. The leftist group Syriza has modified it’s tone to attract more voters. It will not leave the EU, but modify the terms. A win-win move to gain acceptance.

    I am placing a short term call option today. I don’t see any downside to the election results.

    • Mark Uzick June 15, 2012, 6:48 pm

      An option on what?

      I bought call options on FXE last week: They’re up 37% so far.

    • gary leibowitz June 15, 2012, 8:32 pm

      The Q’s since I see them going up first and fast.
      The SPX would be just as good. Reading the political jargon I can’t see a surprise ending. A relief rally is most likely. Not sure it is sustainable but for a short bet it looks like the odds on favorite.

    • gary leibowitz June 15, 2012, 8:36 pm

      FXE was a smart choice. I ususally stay away from currencies but it makes perfect sense. In fact it should do well regardless of our domestic market reaction.

  • Rich June 15, 2012, 4:53 pm

    This essay on the virtues of capitalism might be of interest to this wonderful discussion begun by Mario and Rick:

    http://silversenator2012.blogspot.com/

  • Mark Uzick June 15, 2012, 1:39 pm

    Mario, I learn things here that I could never have learned otherwise; and you probably account for 90% of it. I wonder if Rick realizes what an asset he has in your participation on his forum. (You should ask Rick to buy you a new key-board. 🙂 )

    You say that Chinese can have more that one child but that these children are excluded from “social entitlements”.

    This is intriguing:

    Does it mean that the “extra” children can go to any school that their parents pay for or does it simply mean that the parents are forced to pay an additional tax/fee for mandatory state indoctrination that masquerades for school. Either is an improvement over the way things are done here; and, in the first case, China should have a great future, especially for those who are not first born. Imagine a society that, at least partially, recognizes that the cost of children are the proper responsibility of their parents.

    Does it also mean that other “social entitlements”, like social security and state funded medical care, are the exclusive “right” of the first born? If so, then China may have an especially prosperous future, where the majority of Chinese will have lives independent of the welfare state; and it’s hard to envision a protected class of “first born citizens” being allowed to permanently keep such unjust privileged status for very long. (If this is true, then I hope it will be eliminated – not made universal.)

    I see so much potential; lets hope they have the collective wisdom to learn from our and their own past mistakes. I do have some doubts though: I see your faith that the state’s ability to act decisively (without the legal/political obstacles that would arise in the Western counties) as being a strength to possibly be a reflection of popular Chinese sentiment; it’s actually a weakness and the greatest threat to their future as faith in the state is not only tragically misplaced, but is everywhere a threat to civil order and human life, liberty and happiness.

    • mario June 18, 2012, 4:05 am

      Hi Mark, great questions. need time for deeper reply on this, buried with client work, as well, your questions make me want to research in greater depth, will be talking to a few Chinese friends ,collesgues one of whom is a very ast ute.lawyer, then I,ll be back with reply by end of week…thanks again! Cheers, Mario

  • Buster June 15, 2012, 11:41 am

    Mario, sometimes (usually/always) I forget myself when looking at the big picture, continually.
    Thanks for the essay & for the insight into this part of the world. Personally, I have some respect for the Chinese way of thinking, & think they are farther from the road to ruin than some western regimes clearly are. We know there are many sides to things, as all our varying perspectives attest. Simultaneous realities, no doubt. It’s good to see your view on the ground.
    I would just say though, that if all the evidence supporting a darker future than the one optimists are hoping in turns out to be the real one, being a foreigner can become ‘awkward’, so it’s good to be prepared for a quick exit. Millions have, or have wished they had, been prepared to do this in various lands & times throughout history, usually to their utmost surprise, so please don’t just dismiss the warning signs. Human history is quite brutal right up to this day. No conspiracy, just realism.

    • mario June 15, 2012, 1:55 pm

      Thanks Buster for all of your thoughts here, these are wild times across the globe.

      I FULLY appreciate as a foreigner living overseas exactly your comment and ponder those issues constantly. Things can get ugly fast for reasons one might not imagine.

      Cheers, Mario

  • Sam June 15, 2012, 9:40 am

    Hi Mario,

    I’ve been frequenting Ricks forum here for some time and I’ve always enjoyed hearing your point of view. Investors with an international perspective offer us all an opportunity to see other positives where there may be currently very few. If it wasn’t for all my travels I would be half the person I am today. I appreciate the truth as it stands from someone who has visited/lived in China as much as the States, northern Europe, southern Europe or South America. Every one of these places is unique and offers us a chance to get our heads out of our respective behinds. Apologies for not taking the time to write until now.

    My wife is Chinese and we go back to Beijing frequently. It’s difficult to put the cultural differences between the east and west into their economic equivalents. As you pointed out, most Chinese families own their own home, with a majority of the mortgage paid off. There is a love of symbolic success and the designer brands are purchased by many hard-working Chinese. The work ethic is quite different to anywhere else I’ve been to. 8 until 8 is a widely accepted working schedule (although food and good eating is considered somewhat of a priority in China so people never go hungry through all that hard work). We still see inequality in China but on the whole the people accept their lot and go about living in the harmonious way (wu wei) This is something deeply embedded in the culture – through buddhist and taoist traditions.

    However I might wish to look towards the positives I still see problems arising from the East. The living conditions are unhealthy from a few environmental points of view and there are also issues with such a large population living so closely together. The potential for a more creative approach in generating cultural wealth (arts, education, innovation etc) is limited by the herd mentality. It’s something of a double-edged sword. One way the social cohesion creates massive strength and on the other hand incredible weakness. There’s also the fact that intellectual copyright is not protected in China much (this is a small point – maybe the Chinese think in such long time frames that they can see this already coming to an end in some ways) Other areas I find hard to deal with are the undemonstrative culture – It makes me want to get up and shout! If you do that in China people tend to think ‘oh look, there’s the hot-headed westerner’ The saying “when in Rome” works when visiting for a a short while but after some time my habits of cynicism and satire get the better of me. However, as a side note, I remember the same feelings of misunderstanding and isolation in the US and in parts of Europe too – the only difference is, I could talk to people about my feelings and they would have some camaraderie for the intentions. I could also voice dissent with the locals for the underhand tactics employed by the national government which always made me feel right at home. This is pretty much absent from my experiences in China. On a personal level, I also get incredibly claustrophobic with so many people around.

    No conspiracy theories here. I’d just like to recommend to any people who are thoughtful and open-minded enough to explore China themselves and see the future there. It will surprise you, no doubt.

    Thanks again Mario for a good look at life and business in China.

    • Mark Uzick June 15, 2012, 2:00 pm

      Sam: There’s also the fact that intellectual copyright is not protected in China much (this is a small point – maybe the Chinese think in such long time frames that they can see this already coming to an end in some ways)

      I think it’s a big point and I don’t see this as a weakness, but as a great moral and economic strength that bodes well for their future.

      Thanks for the commentary; posters like yourself and Mario are what keep me coming back to Rick’s Picks.

  • SD1 June 15, 2012, 4:52 am

    Mario, you are putting up a great fight with good arguments and I am sure you expected a ton of criticism from a bunch of brainwashed, perma bear conspiracy theorists, and to that, they didn’t disappoint. Thanks, Mario for a little piece of optimism in an all-too-negative world.

    • mario June 16, 2012, 3:26 am

      Thanks SD!…indeed, even though some of the arguments reach unpleasant moments, I love that they make me think and check and research more deeply , so in this way is what jc meant by love your enemies, and the similar ideas that your foe is your teacher, etc…

      Cheers, Mario. g

  • Jenny C June 15, 2012, 2:13 am

    It would be almost impossible for the writer, located in China, to give a negative impression of China. That could land him in prison. This is very common for expats, and the bias is laughable. ‘Only in America’ can you really criticize openly and not be deathly afraid of the consequences.

    • mario June 15, 2012, 3:31 am

      No bias Jenny. I also report on all the difficulties across China’s society. And contrary to your comments, the Chinese presses are much more open and editorial 5hn ever before, also reporting themselves on such problems. The only subject seemingly strictly off limits is direct criticism related directly to the govt leaders, mmm such as walking around a public place with a insulting protest poster of a political leader. No can do…that lands anyone in prison, etc.

      See, here’s your problem, it bugs you that I am at all informing you that anything good, growing, expanding, improving could possibly ALSO be happening at the same time that known problems exist. The two realities both exist.

      My article and many others I have written are based on known visible, measurable, observable reality. Otherwise I would not write and publish them.

      Such reporting of a fact such as the babyboom here clearly, factually indicates expansion and rising demand, a meaningful long term item to note.

      No bias, I completely reject that I am biased.

      Cheers, Mario

      By the way apologies to all as it is my glitchy keyboard causing these extra character typos I can’t cut, . . a

      A

      .

    • Chris T. June 15, 2012, 11:18 am

      yes, the illusion of freedom, which is what it has become, dies hard, and that is what the masters are counting on.

    • Steve June 15, 2012, 5:01 pm

      Really Jenny C. Try getting critical of the mobocracy using case law that proves the people and government are in full blown rebellion and see how kind the U.S. is. Stay to the chosen words of mobocracy or find one’s self in deep poo.

  • Steve June 15, 2012, 2:07 am

    And there is no difference between Egypt and an administrative tribunal exercising the ordinances of men where once stood the Immutable Law in support of Individual Rights on the several States in union. U.S. administrative courts legislate the ordinances of hu’man corporations as precident, not Law, and not Order.

    The will of the masses crys out that there is no Immutable Law, or Law Giver, only the will of the masses judging by personal need, and local mass opinion.

    How many Oaths of Office did O’bama take < than three and the last in private with Chief J R who could not read an Oath in Affirmation after three tries ? Really !

    I suspect Chief J.R. knew the truth about O, as did O know the truth about mobocracy. O's loyalty is split between foreign powers and corporate bankers. Not to say that Mitt is not owned too., We the People – gone lost to corruption and greed.

  • Chris T. June 14, 2012, 8:56 pm

    redwilldanaher:
    “If you doubt that the “media” haven’t been trustworthy since,…”

    Just reading today in Der Spiegel about the “events” in Egypt. That is another one in the list of publications above.
    Forget WHAT they said, but look at HOW they said it.

    They report about the High Court ruling on a constitutional matter, just as if it were the Scotus or the German Const. Court ruling in such a situation.

    For the rubes this is intended for, it looks like a country-of-laws, with a separation of powers state structure, etc.

    Please!
    This is a third-world, banana republic, decades old military junta ruled place.
    parliament? lauch
    independent supreme court? snicker
    and so on.

    However, this is Egypt, on of OUR puppets, where we begrudginly had to give in to events outside of our control, and made the best of it.

    Now, if this had NOT been one of ours, then the report would have been spun differently.

    There is NO difference between this Kangaroo court in Egypt, and the supreme court in Moscow circa 1981.

    Or look at a similar reporting about events in various African countries in the last years, the ones where we aer now with the new Africacom…

    Hubris:
    The fact the D.R. was trumpeting this so long ago.
    But then again not, because it didn’t seem to hurt their cause.

    So what WAS that major crisis he mentioned?
    9/11?
    Financial collapse 2007-2008?
    Euro meltdown?

  • kwame June 14, 2012, 7:53 pm

    they, are all just slaves. what does all that reproducing create but a bubble in humans. all bubbles burst. carbon copys doomed to be nothing but ghosts in the machine.

    • mario June 16, 2012, 3:19 am

      You are describing the whole of human history from a very negative viewpoint which is justified by the facts, the heaps of misery out there across the globe…Timing and location/circumstance have s a big influence on how well or poor a particular generation may end up…

  • mario June 14, 2012, 4:54 pm

    In recently starting some work with Hua Tai Securities, a huge firm here here which does domestic equities analysts for China’s institutional investors, I am of their stated view that it is going to be a rough 5 years with low expectation the Shanghai listed equities index is going anywhere but in a sideways range.

    little e

  • Rich June 14, 2012, 3:54 pm

    Dear Mario

    I admire your spunk.

    The Soviet Union and People’s Republic are countries of the future, and always will be.

    Yes, China was just voted the most powerful economy on earth, but that’s what they thought about Japan Inc too for a time.

    Communism, fascism, socialism and mixed economies do not work, except for building the Road to Serfdom.

    Bottom line:

    FXI targeting -25%:

    http://stockcharts.com/freecharts/gallery.html?fxi

    • Buster June 14, 2012, 4:27 pm

      Yes Rich.
      In fact every political system ever attempted has been gamed to keep humanity on the path of serfdom. Hence, I conclude that we are misdirecting our efforts in thinking that a political system is even the answer to prevent the inevitable & fast approaching point of singularity.
      No, just as every political system from democracy to communism has been played by the bad elements of human nature, it could be that any political system could in fact function quite happily so long as there was a just system of law.
      Is it possible that one could exist or are we truly as doomed as the evidence seems to conclude? Is everything really chance or is this an evolution of events being played out in the only direction it can go to reach the obvious conclusion that there is no other way:
      Justice must be universal & incorruptable for intelligent societies to survive.
      Without it, all the talents of mankind amount to nothing and all our endeavours are futile, our creativity just waiting to be destroyed by our lawlessness.
      We shall see soon enough.

    • Steve June 15, 2012, 1:53 am

      Rich, I have not read Buster yet. Yet, I wish to state that democracy in America has lead from Allodialism to tenant in fee in just 100 years. It matters not what form of government there is. What matters is what banker controls the debt. Making it more simple. Since 1867 Liberty has gone to Fee which is defined by the Law as Fee, Fife, Feod, Feud, Feudal Tenant, Tenant in Fee, Peon, Serf, Slave.

      Ever wonder why your government is spreading DEMOCRACY instead of Liberty in the Republican Form?

    • Steve June 15, 2012, 1:54 am

      Great post Buster.

    • Steve June 15, 2012, 2:09 am

      led anyone?

  • gary leibowitz June 14, 2012, 3:23 pm

    Good point Mario. They are a fledgling country that has huge potential. Have they grown to far to fast? I personally see minor speed bumps along the way. Case in point, here in the U.S., 3 years after the mortgage debacle, we have the following headlines from bloomberg.

    =====================================
    “Americans See Biggest Home Equity Jump in 60 Years ”

    Home equity in the first quarter rose to the highest level since 2008 as homeowners taking advantage of record-low borrowing costs to refinance their loans brought cash to the table to pay down principal. The gain in percentage terms was the biggest jump in more than 60 years, according to an analysis by Bloomberg of Federal Reserve data.

    Residential mortgage debt peaked in 2007 at $10.6 trillion, doubling in six years, according to Fed data. Since then, it has fallen 7 percent as the value all residential property has dropped 23 percent.

    It’s the strongest sign yet that Americans’ home-loan debt burden is beginning to ease after the record borrowing that created, and ultimately popped, the housing bubble, leaving almost a quarter of homeowners with mortgages owing more than their properties were worth.
    =====================================

    I would interpret that to mean given enough time we can recover with less severe consequences.

    To write off China, with the largest economic potential of any other country in our history, is to go against common sense.

    • gary leibowitz June 14, 2012, 3:26 pm

      me bad… to too (caught one)

    • Cam Fitzgerald June 14, 2012, 3:50 pm

      Common sense? Don’t bet on the wrong horse, Gary. In time you will see that what I have been discussing is that China faces headwinds that are almost calamitous. Growth numbers are fabricated against a backdrop of unprecedented internal stealth spending and a process of borrow and build that makes Ponzi look like a hill-billy. Honestly, I don’t think anyone has any idea how bad the correction will be. At one time I felt sure growth would continue but expansion is not assured as the bubble unwinds. A hard landing may indeed be the outcome China is heading for and that would suggest an end to the current period of growth. If only we could get better numbers and the system were more transparent. I harbour very serious doubts in any case. China is a disaster story that is just not yet been told.

    • gary leibowitz June 14, 2012, 4:21 pm

      Cam, I understand your point. I just think that their government policies don’t need approval by the public. I can envision policy changing on a dime to accommodate business growth.

      Have they overshot on infrastructure? Absolutely.
      Do they have major growing pains? Yes.
      Will this result in a Japanese style problem of the 80’s? Don’t think so.

    • redwilldanaher June 14, 2012, 4:26 pm

      Cam, I noticed that you left a question for me in yesterday’s comments. I find it amusing because it seems like whenever someone exposes the emperor and the market has yet to sell off, the bulls ask how the shorts are working out.

      1. I’m not short anything and haven’t been short anything for a very long time.

      2. Why don’t you address the fact that you really got a little ahead of yourself labeling people that are skeptical of the “wondrous quarterlies” as “childish”?

      3. I’ve been long gold/silver vehicles for the better part of the last decade and most of it I latched onto in 2003.

      4. Tell us all where your quarterlies would be without the fantasy-based accounting, the international tax scheming, the inflation and currency boosts… Strip out AAPL and what do you really have? Still care to argue that one? I saw little in the form of a reply to that.

      5. I’m not asking for much, I am simply asking that the wonderful earnings comments include a “wink wink” qualifier when they are discussed.

      I will state it again. We all know that the market is based on fraud, deception and much more. I am open to new highs and I always am, I am open to new lows and I always am. I don’t trade and invest on the fraud directly in front of me because it can have no short term bearing on what asset prices are going to do next. Just because I want the truth to be discussed doesn’t mean I’m a balls to the wall perma-short. I will admit that I’d prefer to see the entire rotten edifice come crashing to the ground because I prefer a struggle to a lie.

      Finally, I find it ironic that you’re attacking China’s story and are much more sanguine with respect to the prospects for the good ole USA. You seem to be able to clearly spot the fraud there but refuse to do the same here. Not sure where you reside but you may need to step back to see that both forests are potentially quite rotten.

    • gary leibowitz June 14, 2012, 4:47 pm

      Red, if you want to exclude some big profit makers like AAPL, than you should look at the individual companies making up the DOW, SP500, Q’s. They are at historically low or moderate P/E levels. In fact given the 3 year run up it is surprising how cautious wall street is. No way the markets are overpriced. In fact the projections for next quarter were reduced a while ago.

      I would also exclude banks since they have taken on the huge burden of debt and bailouts.

      The recent data from savings and record low mortgage rates, to PPI and CPI contracting bodes well for the consumer to continue its spending pattern. In fact I have stated a long while ago that we could see a “sweet spot” where everything comes together to create a big earnings run up.

      Since crashes are the abnormal anomoly, and the fact that domestic economic activity is not showing any drastic change, why would I hide from the markets. Since I have left the market a while ago due to triggered events, I have still not gotten back in. I intend to soon, if my technical targets hold.

    • mario June 14, 2012, 5:35 pm

      Right Gary as I have pointed out often. They have myriad choices at their fingertips to instantly respond. I’m not saying their way doesn’t also have plenty of cause for concern but decisions getting held up in committees is not one of them.

      Cheers, Mario

    • Cam Fitzgerald June 14, 2012, 7:49 pm

      Yes, I saw those comments Red. There was some great observations there too but I decided not to begin addressing any of it yesterday. Mostly because there was too much material to tackle but also because it was going off track of my theme that Fascism is on the rise in the West as an outcome of our debts. That is what corporatism represents, isn’t it. But I will come back to it tonight. Fair enough.

    • Rick Ackerman June 14, 2012, 8:20 pm

      Americans are raising the equity stake in their homes in order to re-finance at lower rates. In economic terms, they are simply shifting their savings/nest eggs into real estate. This is hugely deflationary for the foreseeable future, although it presumably holds positive implications for cash flow well down the road, after home values have bottomed at perhaps half (or less) of current levels.

      Of course, all of the downpayment money will be unavailable for investment. A silver lining in this dark cloud is that by now even the economically ignorant likes of Alan Greenspan will have grasped that aggressively pushing investment into real estate via lavish tax incentives and cheap mortgage loans was never going to make America wealthier or more productive. With the rise of home equity, we are finally paying the deflationary piper with hard-earned savings, settling debts at the expense of economic growth.

    • gary leibowitz June 14, 2012, 9:27 pm

      Rick,
      Can you explain why it is deflationary?

      “Americans are raising the equity stake in their homes in order to re-finance at lower rates. In economic terms, they are simply shifting their savings/nest eggs into real estate. This is hugely deflationary for the foreseeable future, ..”

      The refinance is a wash. Excess money received from lower rates is going into paying down principal. No out of pocket expense.

      &&&&&&

      Think about refinancing your own home, Gary, on the condition that you bring $50,000 cash to the deal to raise your equity stake on your underwater home to 20% of the loan amount. Please think this through thoroughly before you ask any more questions, because I can’t conceive of any good ones. RA

    • Steve June 15, 2012, 1:47 am

      Here is some real hard information just off the presses last weekend. 12077 South East —— Road, just listed Sunday @ $273,000.00, 5 bedroom, 3600 + sqft. Countrywide was into the place 4 years ago for $680,000.00. BONY Bank of New York just had to replace everything the former cop owner stole prior to foreclosure. BONY had to repair the mildew and water damage, as well as the deck, the roof, and facia boards and gutters.

      Where is the all the money when the sale takes place, and it will not be @ $273,000.00?

      Me brudder in law just refinanced for 15 years and his wife thinks the place is still worth 1m and the chickens are a crowing. Me thunk the 1,000,000.00 is more like 250k. Where did all that great real estate investment money go ? Great idea thinking a place is worth 1000k. Only problem is that there is no gain until the place is sold. Not planning on selling, just paying down the mortgage. Value is how warm and dry the place will keep a man and his wife. But, no one is buying sculpture to decorate – they are worried about working until they die.

      Has anyone read the fine print on these new mortgage papers? Must be something special in there.

      As to accounting standards. BONY claims the address @ value 680k and will take a loss when the place sells, unless there are other accounting rules.

      Could there be a Golden Jublilee for the bankers, and not the people? How else can the 16T that little Timmy gave away be repaid ? Could the people keep a working and the bankers keep a lending, and only the banker’s debts are forgiven/ That is absolutely one advantage of the New World Order – Bankers on Top – countries under oppression and no wars because the bankers control it all.

  • martin schnell June 14, 2012, 1:17 pm

    Hi Mario,
    I first went to Shanghai in January 1984. I remember Nanjing Jie being so crowded with people (all dressed in blue or green) that they walked on the street and there was only one lane each way for cars (and that lane was all but empty). This was China just on the cusp of an amazing transformation. (Having just come from India it was bloody obvious which country was going to grow faster going forward).

    They have come a very long way, very fast. But it is that speed that worries me. When you do big things for the first time, and quickly, you often (usually) do not build on a solid foundation. The growth is super charged, not organic … and that often means that there are hidden problems below the surface (Buffet’s naked swimming and tides analogy comes to mind).

    As in much of Asia the real economy is the grey economy and as such I trust almost no numbers out of China. They are all simply made up by mandarins at head office. Growth rates are figments of their imagination (they are always within .1 or .2 of what was projected at the start of the year (a statistical impossibility in an economy as large as China’s).

    You may very well be right about China’s future, but I am less wildly optimistic. I think we will only know the real answer once China hits its first real wall. (For one thing the huge imbalances in the economy argue that there will be a hard wall at some point – for example the only 2 instances in the past where countries had such large FX reserves were the US in 1929 and Japan in the late 80’s and we know how those turned out – so if there is another recession soon I expect that China will actually be worse hit).

    China has a number of very large problems, first among them overpopulation and environmental overshoot. Add in an education system that stamps out any creativity and an economic system that is amongst one of the most unbalanced in history and I’m not sure you have the solid foundations in place upon which to build higher. China will of course do fine (the spirit and nature of the people and culture will ensure that) in the long run … but there are going to be some very very bumpy times first, and how China handles those will determine how well they do going forward.

    • mario June 14, 2012, 4:33 pm

      Thanks for adding excellent points Martin, especially the reminder about the environmental challenges, a huge and broad set of issues to tackle.

      Cheers, Mario

    • gary leibowitz June 15, 2012, 2:49 pm

      Rick,
      Call me dense but the article mentions nothing about distressed homes. Where I live the values of homes are very near it’s all time highs. The article mentions “taking advantage, brought cash to the table to pay down principal”. Nothing about negative equity values. I assume ALL people that benefit from a reduced yield will take advantage of the situation. In my case there would be no out of pocket expense. I bought a long time ago with a yield well over the current rate. Had I still owed money I would also take advantage of this situation.

      To me, and the article I read, the assumption is that people are very cautious and no longer treating their home as a bank to borrow against.

    • gary leibowitz June 15, 2012, 3:42 pm

      Never mind Rick. I am dense. Yes you are correct. They are using extra cash to pay down their debt and also reducing the length of their loan. It is however a stong indication that borrowers have learnt their lesson. Now that individuals and corporations are on the right path the biggest drag is government. I don not agree that strict austerity should be placed on our system. A gradual rebalancing is needed. This however means a long term change in governments role. Not sure they have the will power. In any event with the EU causing the next round of defaults and deflationary pressures, I don’t think we have the time to escape this mess.

  • jeff kahn June 14, 2012, 1:05 pm

    I believe over time China is bound to prevail. But right now, that doesn’t mean they aren’t primed for massive short term (five year) crash. I live in NYC. If you go to nice restaurants any day of the week they’re packed. Of course, NYC has 700,000 millionaires. I’m sure it’s the same in major Chinese cities. That doesn’t mean that outside financial centers the country isn’t hurting.

    • mario June 14, 2012, 4:42 pm

      Hi Jeff,

      “Broadly across the middle class better , wealthier, more stable, productive, than ever while many lower income strata still struggling” would be an accurate one sentence description of the state of affairs in today’s China.

      Cheers, Mario

    • Steve June 15, 2012, 6:40 pm

      Mario, But, is China poor as the government says? Or, is the Chinese government setting on more credit that any other Nation? We in the U.S. country are simple debtors in possession of what is owned by the banksters who we slave for. What of China ? Are the Gray and Black traders at Liberty, or are they in illegality – just not subjected to the task master yet – fleeing in fear when the master shows? Does the Chinese Red Party accept and encourage the Gray and Black Traders of things in carts on the streets ? Where lie ethics and morality? Are these things of Individual Character only subjective in situtational ethics? Is the Mortal Stance of Chinese – It is Okay as long as one is not caught ( I call this the Clinton/democratic theory of So WHAT if I did it).

      Where does that theory of long ago 20 – 60 – 20 lie in a world that is awash in Chinese profits, in tin cities, rubbing shoulder to shoulder, living in boxes, controlled by the banksters?

      Do the Chinese desire Liberty, or has that been bred out of them until they are but one mass of cells for the Red Person China?

      Life would be easier for me Mario if I would only wriggle like cilia along with the Red Masses who fill tin buildings in smog filled streets swaying back and forth to move the mucus in the direction that is best for society upon the thought of the Red Brain of one leader in succession.

  • mario cavolo June 14, 2012, 11:20 am

    Thanks again to Rick for posting my latest article on views related to China.

    Related to the baby boom demand theme of the article I read a report which included the statement “According to Goldman Sachs and the UN, China’s middle class will be approximately four times that of the U.S. middle class population within one generation.”

    Perhaps this helps to understand GS is ramping down its western presence and massively ramping up its Asia-based operations and investment interests.

    Further,, according to the National Bureau of Statistics of China released by McKinsey Global Institute, compared to most developed markets, the higher earners of this rising middle class will be uncommonly young.

    Of course we can understand that China needs to successfully push itself up the value chain to sustain well.

    BBC News: “Volkswagen record car sales…5.1 million cars worldwide, 1.7 million of which sold in China.” “Daimler record car sales, up 13% in U.S. to 245,231 and up 31% to 193,339 in China.”

    What I notice from those indicators is that of course it is the middle class who buys the 1.72 million $20-$30k Volkswagens and the upper middle/wealthy who bought the 193k $70k Mercedes. Expressed as a percentage ratio, we have a the Volkswagen/Mercedes auto sales ratio in China as an indicator at 8:1 to consider. Multiplying by 100, does China have 172 million middle class pop. in ratio to 19 million wealthy pop.? It gives us some sense of the demographics here.

    Iff that middle class pop. is going to quadruple as expected by GS and the UN in one generation, we can further extrapolate exponentially increasing car sales numbers and related consumption demand.

    With car seats for the babes of course.

    I think if some investment house put together a China baby boom product/service sector related investment or mutual fund,that could be a pretty good forward-looking asset allocation if one could insure transparency of the China-listed companies, which is still far below desired standards.

    Cheers, Mario

    • Steve June 15, 2012, 1:25 am

      Mario, Running Clean Air concerns over there in China, or is the 1% per captita of pollution just another Goldman, JP, BofA, accounting scam to avoid the fact that China is a very dirty place to live and the worse in attitude toward world wide pollution?> Give me a break – China is per capita the poorest Nation in the world so it is okay for china to produce more pollution than anyone else. Buy those cars and run them hard because the polution comes to the Western U.S. Coast. Dirty water, dirty air, dirty everything with no concern for anything except getting control of all natural resources everywhere. Watch the waters – are they pure, clean, and cold ?

    • mario June 15, 2012, 2:41 am

      Steve, once again you speak of the past not the present. , it is known across the world’s related research that China’s pollution problem Is severe and that in response, the govt and private sector investment level and plans here are far more than any other country with respect to building up massive windfarms, more and better solar, clean running factories, far more severe penalties for offenders, and latest safety standard nuclear. So I’m confused by your comments to the contrary. The previous circumstances whereby previous leadership didn’t do a better job in the first are unfortunate compounded by the need to somehow manage the needs of a billion plus population. It was a poor country relying on cheap, polluting coal. Now it is emerging, rising and responding. Just the facts in regard to this topic also.

      Cheers, Mario

    • Steve June 15, 2012, 6:13 pm

      Mario, so many things that could be said like “Solar is not yet economically successful because of cost to benefit for the actual 100% life of a solar panel.” ( I don’t have the time to go into lost efficiency over lifespan – Ya they are working on that for the future) Things all look good if one can use accounting standards that continue to shift. Solar electricity is a taking of energy that once did other things. Now, if hu’mans are smarter than anyone in the past that taking may stop the Global Warming caused by China’s excuse for polution because we are 2 billion. For surely as the Sun rises, the things that once lived in sunlight now live in shadow. One small cutting wound to bleed upon another minature cut that cannot be seen, but bleeds just the same.

      In the vein of negativity – the effect of taking energy of the wind from one zone will cause an affect in another zone. That is real SCIENCE. Nothing is free and only time will tell whether small little taking from the wind’s life energy hurts something else downstream. Altering the amount of energy in the life forces of the earth is not free. Is the Balance of the World so easily destoryed, or is the Earth a place that will destroy those who abuse her? The past holds many answers on a micro level Mario. This time the hu’man masters are playing a macro game. Will the will of the masses to fill tin cities and control the free will of all men be the answer? Bankers lie Mario. Governors lie Mario. Accountants lie Mario. Some even lie to themselves so that they are not individually responsible, owing to the illegality licensed by the governmental form owned by BANKERS.

      For the positive in all. Maybe the energy that is supposed to warm the earth that is being absorbed by solar panels will stop the global warming that is believed science with 200 years of data collected and stored by hu’mans versus how many billion years of Earth existence ? Change – can we all agree that the Earth is Change in all things with species going away for billions of years, not for just a thousand years, or even the 200 years of temperature keeping?

      Mario, I don’t care about what the government says is happening in regard to clean air for the future, or what is told in propaganda for the future. Right now, in the present, China is a mess when it comes to Water, Air, and Soil conservation. There is always the contradiction in excusing what is Mario. China destroys the enviroment just like Japan destorys the natural resources of other counties while maintaining the peace of their little gardens with stones and water on their homeland. China destroys its own backyard and says it will fix it tomorrow. And, as long as the 1/2 billion are moving into the city to live just like ME, all is OKAY. Take the lies of liars who whale and call it research. Oh But, it is research. Okay – throw the whale meat away and don’t sell each whale for 1 million in retail markets. ( in Culture I am Hunter Gatherer historically who defends Native taking by accustomed means)

      Situational ethics Mario, its all situational ethics.

      We must consider that we in China have 1 billion population, and maybe 2 billion soon based on more and more children born to more and more middle class families and so that we must manage how the Earth is destroyed based on the fact we have so many poor.

      I am very glad that I will pass on before I see what it is that causes Mario joy in tin alleys and smog filled lanes where the great rivers are dead. Is it control of the wriggling masses of hu’man flesh who joy in neon lights and bouncing boobs?

      So, maybe, China will rebuild their great rivers a thousand years from now.

      I love the excuse that taking something like the energy of the wind is only a very small thing. It is something like an ice crystal which forms a snowflake, which falls to the ground to cover in a snow blanket, to grind into glaciers which ever so slowly carve away the rocks; all upon one little H2O floating in the air on updraft currents heated by the Sun in far away places.

      We are very different Mario in that there is no amount of money, or love, that would have me live in the picture Rick used of China’s towers, and the smog I saw in the feed from the U.S. Emb. Mario seems to find joy in tall buildings and government stats where hu’mans crash into each other fighting for the next songbird on a stick. All the while Mario sings the joys of illegal black and gray markets as the backbone of success for Chinese.

      My joy two nights ago is seeing 3 mature Blacktail Bucks, and a spike and cow Roosevelt Elk along with 5 other deer I could not I.D. all within a few miles of where I till the ground and put my hands into the healing soil.

    • Benjamin June 15, 2012, 8:55 pm

      Well said, Steve!

      And for the record, I’m a city-boy at heart. How on earth, then, could I agree with Steve? There is such a difference between that which develops more with time and consideration than that which is rushed by a government acting as the engineer of “solutions”.

    • mario June 16, 2012, 1:34 am

      Great commentary Steve, thanks much. Solar has big trouble as the process is very polluting…no time now, Cheers

  • Mark Uzick June 14, 2012, 11:11 am

    Mario, I was surprised to read about all the child bearing young women – something that you wouldn’t expect to see with a “one child” policy. Is that policy becoming unenforced? That would certainly be good news, for if the policy continues, then in the not too distant future, China will face a demographically induced crisis/depression of a scale and magnitude never before seen.

    On the other hand, the depression that China is currently undergoing is no crisis, but merely a technical description for a severe economic contraction, as the economy was not leveraged into expansion by a debt bubble. This contraction is nothing more than a healthy breather before a new expansion when assets are redeployed to adjust for changes in demand from international markets.

    Of course I’m being optimistic that the Chinese state will permit these adjustments to take place without too much artificial stimulation to protect established interests against the creative destruction of free competition.

    I know that they’re beginning to take these measures, copying the corrupt Keynesian practices of the established Western economies. They won’t work any better than they do here to create anything more than the wasteful trappings of prosperity, so I hope they won’t persist when these policies fail, or China will follow in the path of the sick Japanese economy as they slowly squander their wealth and, more importantly, their great entrepreneurial talent and potential just to protect the politically connected insiders’ bank accounts and privileges.

    • mario cavolo June 14, 2012, 11:31 am

      Hi Mark, yes one child policy another deeply misunderstood situation.

      First, that policy has become loosened substantially the past couple of years and was only based on economics. Though it is very sad that at the local level, bad people were forcing abortions, etc, the policy is only stating that if you wanted a second child, that child would not get any social citizen benefits from the govt, ie public school, health care, etc., not get the equivalent of a social security card in the U.S. Yet even with that, many countryside families still have and have had 2-3-4-5 children. My neighbor and his wife who work their asses off twelve hours a day have four children!!.they just have to pay for any expenses themselves, so they have taken on that risk, also hoping that of course in the future the children will be able to economically contribute and be productive.

      And so, now with the rising stability/wealth, lots more families are having 2nd children simply because they can afford to, meaning, they know the second child will be going to a reasonably priced private school they will pay for, cost now which is about 2000rmb/month.

      Have to go…Cheers, Mariob

    • Benjamin June 14, 2012, 12:09 pm

      “They just have to pay for any expenses themselves, so they have taken on that risk, also hoping that of course in the future the children will be able to economically contribute and be productive. ”

      Which means favoring boys over girls, thus accounting for the gender disparity.

      And there ain’t no way that a few years of “loose” policy has or is going to change anything. Problems of that magnitude don’t just disappear and they certainly don’t quietly go away.

      Nor is the sad part that “bad people” are doing gender-based abortions. Fact is, the policy has served as the cue. But if everyone had no government assistance, the “bad people” wouldn’t be aborting so many of the girls.

    • mario June 14, 2012, 4:30 pm

      Excuse me Ben, those comments are quite asinine and far off the mark of reality here today. You speak of the past and you speak of local problems as if to day it is Obama’ fault that a local mayor is an ass? You simply need to peruse the goings on in any of China’s thousands of 40 story office towers to witness professional skirts who are mostly the ones running the core operations of companies. 90% of this country’s company HR Directors, managers, admin, etc that I meet everyday of my business life have boobs and no chest hair. They are regarded as PREFERRED to be hired over the men, including by myself. I’ll take a female 28 yr old client key account rep over a guy any day. So that is far from the suggested atmosphere you insinuate.

      Cheers, Mario

      Cheers, Mario

    • Benjamin June 14, 2012, 7:21 pm

      Excuse me, Mario, but…

      a) The gender-based abortions are said to be more prevelent in rural China. But you bring up local mayors, more than suggesting that it is a problem in at least some cities as well, even in this day and age.

      b) According to even the Chinese government data, the only place the disparity doesn’t exist is in the older age categories (65 and older). This is not an indication of a problem of the long-gone past, but rather one that persists into the modern day.

      c) But if the problem is in the long-gone past, as you insist, then part two of the great shift toward urbanization has less of a basis to continue. And not to put too fine a point on it, but as you pointed out… Women have better chances in the cities (despite some local variance).

      Putting two and two together, it becomes apparent that the Chinese government continues to attempt a fix for one of its past follies. So rather than being an asinine comment, maybe — just maybe — I’ve hit a nail dead-center.

      But I understand that there’s a great firewall between us. Only, it’s not the work of your government (as even they admit the points I raise). Rather…

      http://www.flickr.com/photos/aodhfin/4685442651/

      …it’s your own brain-block against the world.

    • Benjamin June 14, 2012, 7:28 pm

      “Putting two and two together, it becomes apparent that the Chinese government continues to attempt a fix for one of its past follies. ”

      Sorry. Should read: “Putting two and two together, it becomes apparent that the Chinese government and their allies in the globalization agenda continue to attempt a fix for one of its past follies”.

    • Benjamin June 14, 2012, 11:26 pm

      Just checking back to see if Mario will address this unworthy idiot. No dice (yet).

      By the way, how is it that thousands of 40-story buildings take on a major significance in one instance, where in other instances they are simply too insignificant to have any impact?

      Back in a few hours…

    • mario June 15, 2012, 3:05 am

      It is truly impossible to reply to statements made as today’s fact which are in fact false in the first place. You simply have no idea what is actually going on here with respect to this subject. It’s painful to read such ignorance spouted as expertise. You completely ignored my report of today’s reality, you generalize to blame a govt that is doing nothing at all to encourage abortion.

      In fact they are doing exactly the opposite by strict policy! Chinese couples are flatly not allowed to be told by the ultrasound test what gender their baby is precisely to insure a female is not irresponsibly aborted.

      Surprise, but I know you will somehow also twist this into my Rajesh PR campaign with Cam.

      You guys are the ones not at all ignoring reality, you are simply unaware of it and in my effort t make you aware of what is actually happening here, you respond as China bashing skeptics with rhetorical twisted inaccurate crap.

      I said Ben, your comment was asinine. It is ancient, ignorant and unaware. Yet you choose to argue as I have made you insightfully, accurately aware.

      I did not call you an unworthy idiot, yet now I call you a person not apparently wise and intelligent enough to appreciate the service and benefit my insights provide to you so that you can speak to others on the subject in a meaningful way.

    • Benjamin June 15, 2012, 3:47 am

      You didn’t make anythinng clear, Mario…

      “Excuse me Ben, those comments are quite asinine and far off the mark of reality here today. You speak of the past and you speak of local problems as if to day it is Obama’ fault that a local mayor is an ass? You simply need to peruse the goings on in any of China’s thousands of 40 story office towers to witness professional skirts who are mostly the ones running the core operations of companies. 90% of this country’s company HR Directors, managers, admin, etc that I meet everyday of my business life have boobs and no chest hair. They are regarded as PREFERRED to be hired over the men, including by myself. I’ll take a female 28 yr old client key account rep over a guy any day. So that is far from the suggested atmosphere you insinuate. ”

      About all I could learn from that knee-jerk response is that are women in China (as if I didn’t know that) and that you are quick to disagree with what even your own government acknowledges. Not a word serves as adequate refutation on any aspect of the matter.

      Garbage. And for that, I’m not obligated to give you a word of thanks for slinging more of it at me,
      alongside the mere repeated denials and references to my “ancient ignorance”. Do be serious.

      And if it was the head-butt photo that upset you, I remind that you swung below the belt first. I ducked and slugged you in the gut. Don’t like it? Want more respect? Then address the issue like a man, to a man. Don’t come at me with that patronizing attitude and spill forth a bunch of syncophatic nonsense as a means of “educating” silly ol’ ancients like me.

      But do whichever pleases you most. It’s not like our coming to an agreement will ever change the outcome of anything.

    • mario cavolo June 15, 2012, 6:43 am

      Ben states as fact that the current Chinese govt encourages and allows gender based abortion. Well, it makes a great story to China bash.

      Mario informed Ben that the Chinese govt does just the opposite, that Chinese hospitals, which are of course Chinese govt run hospitals are forbidden to inform Chinese couples of the gender of their baby precisely to make sure that a couple doesn’t decide to get an abortion.

      I, and all of my married friends here toting babies, including our Chinese couple friends here, um, er, simply know this to be the factual state of affairs.

      Sounds very pro-female babes to me.

      Upon being informed of this very good and reasonable news of a policy being executed for many years here in China….

      Ben somehow chose to completely ignore that rather important revelation and statement of fact, instead of what I thought might be a more reasonable and intelligent reply such as

      “Oh, thanks Mario, until you just told me that I had no idea that was the state of affairs in China today. That’s quite the opposite of what I thought was the case. Now I am intelligently informed. ”

      Instead Ben replied, “….you….spill forth a bunch of syncophatic nonsense”.

      You guys, really, I’m sorry to say it, you guys with your ignorant baseless, rhetorical China-bashing deserve no respect at all.

      YOU threw the first punch with your ignorance, which I’ve tried to correct.

      Ben, I’m good with all of this, really I am.

      Mario

  • Buster June 14, 2012, 10:52 am

    “America (the |Earth) is a great country (planet). As with any business, its success is based on the balance of its assets against it’s liabilities. Its assets are a plentiful supply of natural resources; land & minerals, plus 300 million (7 billion or so) specimens of the most creative creature on planet Earth.
    These assets are hindered by one main liability, a ruling class who imported a monetary system of theirs from Europe a while ago. It is a non free market system which is enough of a hindrance to negate all the positives of any country (planet) in time.”

    Strange how even China has a debt based monetary system, isn’t it?.. despite the historical evidence showing that a land with a non debt based one will out compete the rest of the world in due time.
    China as well as the rest of the world has already fallen! Your hope is misplaced!

    I can conclude with some certainty that despite the availability of technologies known & yet unknown to the majority, & the efforts of well meaning & creative people who still believe that we can overcome the problems of the world caused by human nature, the evidence is so convincing that I am prepared to stand alone against all 7 billion on the other side if I have to, & say with sadness & regret that the story is already written & sealed. The great future of abundance is not what we have to look forward to, but one of war & suffering on an unprecedented scale under corporate fascism. The constitution was not enough to stop it & the Chinese political system certainly isn’t either.
    I know the difficulty in understanding this ‘fact’ & the ridicule it may provoke from some still hopeful & not fully aware of our history & psychological illness as a species, but say it I must nonetheless.
    For the hopeful comes the next chapters for judicial revue, …which is an apt word to use since apart from a system of money that does not enslave, the other thing necessary on a world-wide basis for such a hope to be realised is a just judicial system. Will one occur in the world before the darkness snuffs out your hope?
    Strangely, there is hope but I won’t hope for such a solution to rise out of the minds of men, so I say your hope is misplaced & that future is already lost….& history will be my witness.

    • gary leibowitz June 14, 2012, 3:06 pm

      I guess if you asked anyone living and investing in the 70’s they would come away with similar views.

      I really can’t compare the problems of the 70’s to today but I want to make a point that there is no black/white known future. Time is the great equalizer. Given enough time we can muddle thru this with perhaps another round of devauling the dollar. I personally don’t expect this to occur since the world is caught up in the same mountain of debt, but no one really knows how this will end.

      &&&&&

      No one knows exactly how it will end, Gary, but as Buster has implied, it is quite a stretch to suggest that things will end well. RA

    • redwilldanaher June 14, 2012, 5:01 pm

      Egypt’s military is claiming control over the country. Just one of those “strange” things that can happen on the road to worldwide prosperity.

    • Steve June 15, 2012, 1:14 am

      The rosy eyeglass boys always ignore the possibility of disaster, just saying it will never happen. It does happen. And then those wearing the rose colored glasses cry and grind their teeth. The greatest bubble of all time is still blowing hot air into the arese of the people who refuse to look back into history. It is debt, and the debt is not getting smaller, nor are the people gaining in allodium. What was once owned by Allodialists in now held by debters in possession. The debtor only says ‘who cares I sit in the house and I drive the car’. The path is clear Mario – there has been no gain by the masses in Liberty. The only gain has been in the amount of debt one is allowed to wallow in. As for what I see of living in China – keep it. As to what I read of the poverty of China as a whole – keep it. Resources are limited, especially water. Watch and listen to the rumblings of war and murder because the drum is already beating in the wants of the chinaman for things that cannot be supplied from the resourse there are – watch good clean pure water.

  • Benjamin June 14, 2012, 10:06 am

    http://www.china.org.cn/english/China/100585.htm

    In my view, that’s China’s hemophilic Achilles Heel.
    Then again — and as perhaps illustrated in redwilldanaher’s post — the current phase of the globalization agenda seems to have “corrected” the folly by encouraging other countries to choose the suicidal policies that best fit their own prefences.

  • Cam Fitzgerald June 14, 2012, 8:22 am

    Yes. A higher levels of imports and exports is indeed encouraging. But that will still not cure what really ails the Chinese economy.

    I read your comments above to Allen where you wrote

    “All the ghost cities” is a gross misrepresentation of the situation. A couple dozen overbuilt developments, half dozen of them quite wasteful…..”

    ….and I was a little surprised. Maybe the news does not reach China. Maybe you don’t see the stories about what is actualuy happening. Maybe the extent of the credit bubble has evaded detection altogether over there. But cripes, Mario, there are millions upon million of unoccupied condos and houses there now. Millions. Can it get any worse?

    Please stop minimizing this situation with your talk of a half dozen bad projects and some possibly shady deals. These numbers are quite significant. Even if 64 million empty units is off by 30 million will we be less worried that there are only 34 million shell houses?

    http://www.distressedvolatility.com/2011/04/china-has-64-million-vacant-apartments.html

    • mario cavolo June 14, 2012, 10:39 am

      Hi Cam, Well, ok let’s focus on that issue for a moment. Clearly I am suggesting that many are not understanding what we all here in China understand very well, that 30 million empty homes is of far less concern than some suggest.

      Yes, quite less worries at all about what may be 30 million (the number has never actually been substantiated nor made accurate by anyone including the rhetorical Dateline morons who irresponsibly bandied the baseless 60million number around like it is a fact) unoccupied 40-60-80-100 square meter cement room apartments in a country of 700 million rising, urban dwellers with 200 million more pouring into the urban areas over the next five years supported the world’s most massive baby boom and more…

      Yes, that is what I am saying and yes I understand you have a far less rosy view.

      Meanwhile I was very, very thankful that the author of the re-hash on the subject at the link you provided was foolish enough to base his premise on the unsubstantiated, rhetorical number which Dateline Australia irresponsibly bandied about.

      Speaking of “ghost cities”, how about the ones which now exist all over the U.S. I speak of my understanding of the ruined, decrepit automotive industry related cities, for example, from which people have moved, yes?

      Shall we extrapolate this to identify broader disaster for the entire United States real estate market and economy? How much weight do we give such a particular, observable, measurable indicator?

      Quote from the link article

      GILLEM TULLOCH

      “Yes, I think it will make the United States pale in comparison. It is said that there are 64 million empty apartments in China.”

      He said, he the authority said, he the quoted expert upon which the entire Dateline Video was produced!!…

      He said “IT IS SAID…” I’m having way too much fun now.

      “Its been said…” Some say…” “It may be…” “One could say…” “According to…” “Its been reported…”

      Good grief. Those are classic leading, priming media/PR language used to lead the foolish masses…

      So we have an article clearly defined by and laid upon a foundation of “it is said” zero credibility.

      “Its been reported by long time China resident Mario Cavolo that there is now an unprecedented, massive baby boom in bloom in China.”

      “Its been reported by long time China resident Mario Cavolo that the DateLine Ghost Town video is based entirely on an unsubstantiated, classic PR technique “It is said..” statement by expert Gillem Touch who has yet to produce any further source evidence backing up such a claim.”

      Yes, let me save readers the trouble and ask the obvious:

      Well, who said there is NOT 60 million empty apartments in China?

      Who said there is?

      Who said there’s not?

      I asked you first!!

      Who’s on first?

      I don’t know.

      No no, he’s on third.

      Cheers, Mario

    • Cam Fitzgerald June 14, 2012, 3:37 pm

      There is a pretty big difference between a few dozen failed projects and a few million empty units, Mario. So minimizing the issue does not make you look like you know what you are talking about.

      Nor does the attempt at humour and dismissing the serious concerns put forth by others who have already looked at the hard numbers and concluded a speculative frenzy has taken place.

      You might want to answer the question as to how the poor folk from the country will come to acquire and live in the empty homes we are discussing when we know it is taking as long as 50 years or more for a peasant to theoretically build a downpayment sufficient for home ownership.

      Will all those speculators have an urge to share suddenly? Maybe they will give the country folk a break and let them take possession cheap. Just because capacity exists does not mean it will be taken up by those in need.

      Since when does a mismatch between the needs of one class of people and the surplus of another result in a match anyway? If that were the case then the wealthy would just voluntarily share everything with the poor and the world would be equalized from a financial perspective.

      But does that happen in normal times?

      Clearly, that does not happen anywhere except under circumstances of civil war, revolution or political upheaval…..obviously you don’t get it (unless you are suggesting the outcome is revolution).

      I urge you to stop looking at the outward symptoms of excessive credit and instead to try and focus on the implications of such a large build over a short period of time. China is exhibiting all the classic signs of a bubble economy. It is NOT sustainable at these levels and there is almost no chance that it can repeat the stimulant experience of the past few years without creating even more hazard.

      This is what worries me most as it really means the game is pretty much over and we will only see the consequences from here on in. Don’t get me wrong though, I appreciate a positive outlook on a situation as much as anyone but in this case the numbers are just too damning. You fail to see it.

      Case in point: your observations of a baby boom do not match with the statistical reality. Perhaps there are exceptions but in the big picture the population is aging rapidly and there has been plenty of analysis to support that thesis over the past few years. Look at a more recent article though. I have a couple from Seeking Alpha that you might want to consider today…

      Will China Grow Old Before it Grows Rich. Part one.
      http://seekingalpha.com/article/644161-will-china-grow-old-before-it-becomes-rich-a-demographic-time-bomb-part-1

      Part II
      644181-will-china-grow-old-before-it-becomes-rich-a-demographic-time-bomb-part-2

    • mario June 14, 2012, 5:28 pm

      My reports of a baby boom don’t match statistical reality including GS and the UN’s view that the middle class pop. Is going to quadruple in one generation?

      The above statement in no way negates or changes that a problem of an aging elderly population here also exists. One does not have impact of the fact that the other exists.

      Second, I should clarify my intended meaning that the poor folks you refer to will be renting, not buying. They definitely won’t be able to afford to buy as you suggested.

      Your pessimistic view that you continue banging on is amazing. There isn’t a baby boom, there isn’t consumption, all I am witnessing and reporting is a figment of my commie-loving imagination, Gillem Touche did reveal the source of his 60million empty apt stat , Starbucks is not planning to quadruple its number of outlets across China as announced, MDonald’s and KFC are not packed 7 days a week across the country, the education system is not improving even though foreign based affordable private schools are popping up across all major cities, there is no unprecedented urban migration happening,

      . !

    • Cam Fitzgerald June 14, 2012, 7:34 pm

      The restaurants were full of happy people the day before the earthquake hit LA too Mario. Do you think it made any difference or that the inevitable was avoidable?

      My view is not pessimistic either. It is realistic. The evidence for how bubbles end is overwhelming and there is little that you can do to change the outcomes over there. Nor is like some public relations effort on your part will cause the billions of bad Yuan loans to be paid as it will not stop a negative perception amongst investors towards China’s prospects to change in mid stream.

      You can’t Rah-Rah this problem away no matter how hard you try. And by the way, making babies is not how the middle class normally expands. Let alone quadruples.

    • mario cavolo June 15, 2012, 7:07 am

      Math, hard numbers….

      You wrote, “There is a pretty big difference between a few dozen failed projects and a few million empty units, Mario. So minimizing the issue does not make you look like you know what you are talking about.

      Nor does the attempt at humour and dismissing the serious concerns put forth by others who have already looked at the hard numbers and concluded a speculative frenzy has taken place. ”

      Hard numbers, 30 million empty apartments in a country that no one cares about, in a country of 600 million lower class, 300 million lower/middle/upper middle class, which will be 400 million in 3-5 years, plus another 100 million or so quite or very wealthy, all cash, with almost zero personal credit card debt and mortgage debt per household, that’s 150 million households, with 100-200 million more migrant family people moving into the cities (the largest urban migration in the history of the world) where most of those empty apartments are located and need a place to live when they arrive.

      What do YOU know that apparently Starbuck’s (one example of a consumer driven company) best world and China market research analysts apparently dont know as to make them execute a plan to quadruple the number of Starbucks into China’s 2nd and 3rd tier cities? What do YOU know that the owners of those planned Starbucks don’t know which would make them say to themselves, “Wow, this is the stupidest idea in the world, the speculative frenzy bubble we heard about from Cam at Rick’s forum should cause us to wisely cancel all our plans. What the hell were we thinking?”

      You’re incredible, really incredible. In your replies, you have completely ignored the reasonable facts and hard numbers I reported.

      You, as Ben, also completely ignored in my further replies to acknowledge the expected reality by GS, by the UN, by McKinsey, by realistic first hand observations of real, live expansion of consumption.

      Yet, as you look at all this consumption and growth and expansion, you know better than all of us and China is going to collapse.

      You have been informed of all of these reasonable, observable, measurable known facts and realities of today’s and future China.

      People screw, babies pop out. More people screw, more babies pop out. People get wealthier and more stable in their lives, then they screw even more and even more babies pop out.

      I used the humor to give you the rope to bow out without further embarassing yourself.

      You speak only of a bubble, you claim, you insist the the bubble of which you speak is so horribly severe that it will plummet the country’s inhabitants into economic hell.

      There is nothing, absolutely nothing in the substantiated facts that China today is in anywhere near such a severe bubble. The vast majority of such claims are media-driven crap, conveniently ignoring the good, positive, expansion/growth numbers which exist.

      I’m at end of thread on this.

    • Cam Fitzgerald June 16, 2012, 1:55 pm

      Unbelievable Mario. That post you left is nonsense. Where did I say China was on the verge of collapse? Your response to me is just emotion and rhetoric.

      So why are you taking it so personally?

      I might continue the debate but as the balance has shifted from the rational to to the emotional it is no longer worth my time. There is no arguing with a person like yourself who conjures so many wild assumptions out of someone elses words. And the usual insults and insinuation that you are doing us all a favour adds little to the conversation.

      I am not convinced by your evidence in any event. Those anecdotes about full restaurants and the outbreak of sex and the production of fresh babies are not meaningful for the current situation although they are somewhat interesting.

      But Mario, there is almost nothing that can be done to arrest a housing bubble correction once in motion other than to reduce interest rates and prolong the inevitable.

      This just results in more trouble showing up at a later date and tends to drive prices up further while drawing even more demand forward. The government in China has a stated mission of deflating the housing bubble though but are now at a serious crossroads as they simultaneously need lower interest rates to stimulate the general and manufacturing portions of the economy. Doing so without affecting real estate is going to take the work of magicians, not economists. They are trapped.

      Nobody doubts that there is a bubble in China in any event. Even the government acknowledges the problem while you seem to want to deny it. Has nobody learned anything from an actual bursting bubble (like one closer to home in the US. for example). We know they do not end well. And the sad argument put forth by China bulls that high down payments are garlic against falling prices is absurd. Just more nonsense and pablum for people who don’t pay attention.

      Since when did large deposits prevent excessively high prices from reverting? Did they matter during the Tulip bubble? Did they matter in the US where prices had been high but stable? Surely you must appreciate how ridiculous the price/rent ratios and price/income ratios are Mario. Especially for anyone living in rural China who has not a hope of buying in his lifetime. That is not a recipe for the evolution of a growing middle class but fodder for trouble in my view. The disparity meanwhile between rich and poor in China has grown to a chasm.

      Your numbers regarding home ownership are also highly suspect as those with the income to buy represent just a small single digit percentage of the population. Perhaps you will share your source for a 90% ownership rate in China. That number is absurd of course.

      You still did not, incidentally, address the question as to how the millions of empty units already constructed were to marry up with all the demand from the incoming workers (who by the way will not be incoming if the past expansion ends). Your suggestion was that supply and demand were going to cohabit somehow.

      I argued that impoverished workers cannot possibly acquire over inflated housing nor even afford to rent so that argument of yours is not holding any water.

      As I have already stated Mario, the correction now underway in real estate will affect the outcome of the China business model for years to come. Additionally, the recent advent of declining consumption from Europe where demand for Chinese manufactured goods has fallen is an added headwind for policy makers trying to balance conflicting growth agendas.

    • Cam Fitzgerald June 16, 2012, 2:51 pm

      “What do YOU know that apparently Starbuck’s (one example of a consumer driven company) best world and China market research analysts apparently dont know as to make them execute a plan to quadruple the number of Starbucks into China’s 2nd and 3rd tier cities?”
      ————————
      Actually, I am all in favour of more internally driven consumption within China. They are too dependent under the current model on exports and that is creating imbalances elsewhere in the world.

      The internal subsidies (low wages, interest rates below inflation, rural impoverishment, restrictive investment opportunities etc amongst others) make for a balance of trade problem and keep the country trapped in a cycle of dependence on an artificially low currency verus the dollar.

      So bring on the Starbucks.

      If anything, I believe Starbucks is making a savvy move with consideration for the inevitable outcome that China must gravitate to more of a consumption oriented society. My current concerns relate more to issues outside China and the impacts that a China-led decline in construction and capital investment will have on commodity prices.

      The last few days we have been hearing that commodities are oversold. There is an assumption though that China will engage in a large stimulus program to offset the decline in the construction sector wrought by falling demand for homes. The intention to inflate has been telegraphed by the Premiere.

      So if I want to know what the mood is I might check in with the big miners like Rio Tinto or BHP Billiton for insight into prospects for the future. So you might ask yourself why they have been lowering expectations of their own growth or cancelling some projects recently. The answers should be obvious. China is their biggest customer by far and it is the worlds single largest commodity consumer today. It has only been the very recent announcements of stimulus injections that have cheered them up.

      But don’t get me going on the subject of stimulants. We know it is a form of can-kicking and the inevitable correction of past excess must still be dealt with in the end. People seem to forget so quickly that there was a time when every hiccup in the market was NOT met with interventionist policy.

      We were used to the idea then that if stocks fell in value it reflected the reality of sentiment and lower expectations but nobody actually relied upon the government to come to the rescue each and every time we burped.

      And that is why we have not seen QE announcements here by Mr Bernanke. Those are reserved for emergencies and we do not have an emergency right now. Can you see where I am going with this….?

      China is bringing on new stimulants because the drastic fall in key numbers is so alarming that the outcome will lead to a certain crisis if nothing is done. We do not have better evidence of the fears than the announcement of fresh stimulus.

      And that is just one of the reasons why your arguments have failed to sway me thus far.

  • Oliver June 14, 2012, 8:10 am

    Mario, I doubt anyone capable of analysis is doubting that China is a great market and that they have just begun.
    So it was around 1900. Everybody was ablaze with the Christmas-like visions of the industrial revolution. And, yes, the industrial revolution made many of those dreams come true.
    Only, in between, there were some serious crashes and depressions seemingly out of nowhere, and, you guessed it by now, two little world wars….

    • mario cavolo June 14, 2012, 10:04 am

      Undoubtedly Oliver! We are all subject to the fascinating and horrible examples of such throughout history…

      Cheers, Mario

  • Cam Fitzgerald June 14, 2012, 6:05 am

    No Mario, I do not agree. You are merely seeing the signs of past excesses manifest in the marketplace of today. That is not real wealth that you are pointing too and it is not going to last. Those are just symptoms of a sickness which we might call stimulus intervention in credit markets and China is not different than countries all over the world who have doen the same thing already. Well, that is not quite true….China ia unique in one way, they have blown the biggest bubble that the world has ever seen and the collapse will be epic when it arrives. I don’t know of any other country that has commit so many resources to stimulating the mirage of high single digit growth nor any that have done so with so little transparenccy. All I can say is enjoy it while it lasts.

    • redwilldanaher June 14, 2012, 6:38 am

      CBO: Obama stimulus may have cost as much as $4.1 million a job

      By James Pethokoukis
      May 30, 2012, 10:09 am

      Let’s price it on a per job basis so we can compare Chinese Central Planning to American Central Planning.

      May the most futile win!

    • redwilldanaher June 14, 2012, 6:51 am

      I’m dumping this here instead of with yesterday’s comments. My apologies Rick if this seems a little off topic but it’s getting hard to read these posts from folks that refuse to acknowledge the hyper manipulation we’ve seen.

      Look at these “ancient” quotes from one PTB Player/Bilderberger.

      If you doubt that the “media” haven’t been trustworthy since, well, forever, I would suggest that you need to do a little more reading beyond, well, the media.

      “We are grateful to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the work is now much more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in past centuries.” David Rockefeller [June, 1991]

      “For more than a century ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents such as my encounter with Castro to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as ‘internationalists’ and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure — one world, if you will. If that’s the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.” -David Rockefeller, from his own book, Memoirs.

      “The drive of the Rockefellers and their allies is to create a one-world government combining supercapitalism and Communism under the same tent, all under their control…. Do I mean conspiracy? Yes I do. I am convinced there is such a plot, international in scope, generations old in planning, and incredibly evil in intent.” Congressman Larry P. McDonald, 1976, killed in the Korean Airlines 747 that was shot down by the Soviets

      “This present window of opportunity, during which a truly peaceful and interdependent world order might be built, will not be open for too long… We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis, and the nations will accept the New World Order.” – David Rockefeller speaking at the United Nations Ambassadors’ dinner. [Sept. 23, 1994]

    • Cam Fitzgerald June 14, 2012, 7:21 am

      All very interesting Red. But why did you not make your point? Should we just read your thoughts from a collection of other peoples comments from the Nineties and start guessing what you really want to say now?

      I think you are connecting the dots the wrong way.

    • mario cavolo June 14, 2012, 8:06 am

      Hi Cam,

      We’ve traded plenty of arguments on how good or bad it all is…:)

      shanghai daily . com headline two days ago ….”Much higher than expected record level imports and exports”…is encouraging.

      Cheers, Mario

    • mario cavolo June 14, 2012, 8:11 am

      Hi RWD!

      Great, scary quotes! I am sure the Chinese elites over the past century have had similar visions and plans. Fortunately, they are moderated by a well thought executed series of 5 year plans to improve and build up the country, which has created unprecedented positive results for the country’s expansion and life improvement, warts and all, and there’s plenty of warts to still make us worry and be wary of…

      Cheers, Mario

    • Buster June 14, 2012, 12:26 pm

      On the contrary, Red. It’s not misplaced at all, but rather is very much a part of the ongoing saga. That TPTB have already got their fingerprints all over China is as clear to the insightful as it is that they have them all over the rest of the world. The money, the corporations, it’s all the same system.
      If anyone wants to believe that we’re not rushing headlong into a global system of control I would urge you to watch ‘The future of food’. In it you’ll see how corporations like Monsanto are, piece by piece, claiming the world’s food supply as their property. This is going to be a real problem for all countries, whether open or closed societies, & is just one tiny piece of the puzzle being put together on a global scale.
      The bright lights of a bustling China in the picture are of no more relevance to a real future than those of Las Vegas today….which has a cesspool of broken people a street away from them!
      Listen up! We’re not going into some great technological future any more than we are going to muddle along like humanity appears to have always done. It’s actually all been going to plan if you look behind the headlines & the booms & busts.
      Now crunch time on every front is coming and there is nowhere to hide from it. Those bright lights don’t detract from the real issues facing humanity. All that’s really happening is the problem is spreading & getting bigger.

    • redwilldanaher June 14, 2012, 4:05 pm

      Here are my points Cam. Give yesterday’s discussion I assumed that you would connect the dots. I apologize because I wasn’t attempting to be cryptic.

      1. I find your statement a little ironic since the supposed “bastion of capitalism” (another propagandistic lie of course), by their own BS accounting, just spent 4.1 mil to create a “job”.

      Talk about countries committing resources to perpetuate a mirage!

      2. The other quotes that I left had to do with the so-called media being “in on it” and thus rotten to the core since who knows when… But clearly they can’t be trusted.

      The SURFACE level of anything can’t be trusted. The wondrous earnings that Gary rhapsodizes over again and again, they are the surface. They are fraud. As I have stated, we can all play the “wink wink” game and trade based on the fact that the market, which has many “wink wink” type players in it, does not care that earnings are a fraud. In fact we should trade that way. In fact we should be open-minded about what can happen to the indices. I learned that 20 years ago. That’s why I won’t rule out new highs and beyond. I know how absurd markets can become. We all have lived through several absurd and yes artificially induced bubbles in the past few decades. MY OBJECTION REMAINS that Gary and now apparently you are unwilling to classify the earnings as such and thus help to perpetuate the fraud when both of you should know better. Go back to yesterday’s comments and see how spectacular things look when AAPL’s earnings are discounted from equation and remember, inflation has been the friend of earnings and at the base of them lies rotten accounting and at the base of that lies fiat/PTB induced consumption fantasies.

    • Steve June 15, 2012, 1:00 am

      Right on Red !!!!

  • Seawolf June 14, 2012, 4:53 am

    Mario, back in the depths of the Cold War I heard a saying; “an optimist studied Russian , a pessimist studied Chinese”. I would say that that is still true today.

    • mario cavolo June 14, 2012, 8:04 am

      Chinese have a strange pride in “cleverness” and it is deeply reflected in much of their language which is load with “chenguy” which are four Chinese character sayings that tell a full story with some life lesson attached. For example if I call you a “250” , it means you’re quite stupid, as it relates to the story of the 250 men who acted foolishly as told in that Chinese fable.

      Cheers, Mario

  • Chris T. June 14, 2012, 4:39 am

    Boy, that just wants to bring out the Malthusian in me!
    Prince Phillip and his Bilderberg cohorts must hate looking there.

    “…business environment for foreign companies has deteriorated and become less welcoming.”

    Is that perhaps because they believe right now to have stolen all there is to steal from the creators of the transferred production, and wish to reap it more solely for a while?

    Not a stereotypical assertion, just ask the Transrapid consortium…

    But one thing needs reiterating:
    Based upon their long history, it is more likely than not that China will not choose to embark upon the world-bully path we have, instead using what its economy produces to achieve that.
    Which is a much friendlier and fairer way than we go about this (Darfur’s removal by us from Khartoum as a good example, or Libya….)

    • mario June 14, 2012, 7:18 am

      Hi Chris, my answer to your question is yes. They are highly self-interested, yet we can say that about many such countries in their dealings. Caution is the watchword dealing with the Chinese

      Cheers, Mario

  • allen June 14, 2012, 4:10 am

    What about all the ghost cities built?Well if all the women are pregnant or with newly born babies I guess it’s safe to say the Asians plan well in advance….

    • mario cavolo June 14, 2012, 8:01 am

      Hi Allen, “all the ghost cities” is a gross misrepresentation of the situation.

      A couple dozen overbuilt developments, half dozen of themquite wasteful, built most likely as money-laundering vehicles in cahoots with local govt corruption with millions of illegal cash and bank credit out in the far reaches of Western China…(think Las Vegas when what’ his name the maffia guy built the Stardust in the 50’s and everyone thought he was nuts.)

      Its a miniscule percentage of the commercial and residential real estate sector here, but it makes a great story!

      Cheers, Mario

    • allen June 15, 2012, 3:07 am

      I don’t think it’s just a story.To find out real info on the global economy you might want to check out Mike Shedlocks blog.Pretty informative and accurate info that man puts out.I can’t subscribe to that joe 6-pack blind bullish(pipe dreaming) attitude but to each his own.Heres what a google search comes up with.
      https://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_nf=1&gs_mss=vacant%20citie&tok=-zSzSzVzHSZviKpHdHMm2w&cp=15&gs_id=1o&xhr=t&q=vacant+cities+in+china&pf=p&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&oq=vacant+cities+i&aq=0&aqi=g1g-K1g-m1&aql=&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=665ce31ffb57f9fc&biw=1600&bih=805

    • mario June 16, 2012, 3:09 am

      I’m aware of all the analysis Allen thanks! I’m simply of the view that the negatively suggested significance of the matter is far less…Cheers, Mario