A Bond Bull Sees More Deflation Ahead

[Our good friend Doug B., a financial advisor based in Boulder, CO, has done well for his clients by keeping them heavily weighted in bonds. In the essay below, he explains why he intends to stick with this strategy even though many of his peers expect a rebounding stock market to outperform fixed-incomes in the years ahead.  For Baby Boomers in particular, the deflationary trend that buttresses Doug’s strategy holds stark implications.  RA]

I was prompted to write this comment by the fact that, through Q3 of this year, the total return performance of long-term Treasury bonds has exceeded the performance of the stock market for the trailing 30-year period that began in 1981. I began my career as an “Account Executive” at Merrill Lynch in 1977 when brokers were leaving the business to drive taxicabs. It is a bit startling to think that the “benchmark risk-free long term asset” has won the race for practically the whole time.

I have had the opinion for some time that there are better risk-adjusted, total-return opportunities in the bond market than in the stock market. Consequently, I have favored bonds over stocks in my asset allocation recommendations to most clients — regardless of their risk tolerance or investment objective — since well before the stock market peaked during the Tech Bubble in 2000. For investors who have a more aggressive capital appreciation objective and higher risk tolerance, I have recommended bonds with very long maturities. For investors who are more inclined toward the stable-income and preservation-of-capital objectives that are more commonly attributed to fixed-income portfolios, I have recommended somewhat shorter maturities. In the final analysis, the prevailing economic and market conditions over the past 12 years have been extraordinarily volatile because of the extreme influence of credit bubbles. Locking in safe income in the bond market has been a great way to stay out of trouble. Recent events in the economy and the financial markets suggest that such an approach is still appropriate, looking out over an intermediate term investment horizon.

A Bond Benchmark

Bloomberg recently reported that long-term Treasury bonds have provided a greater total return than stocks for the last 30 years. The bond benchmark cited in the Bloomberg article appears to be Barclays US Treasury Long Bond Index, which captures the return for an aggregate of 20-year and longer Treasury coupon bonds. The benchmark for the stock market is the S&P 500 Index. The resulting 30-year returns are similar for bonds and stocks: 11.5% for long- term Treasury bonds and 10.8% for stocks. Over the last 12 years however, the S&P 500 has returned less than 1% per year, whereas the US Treasury Long Bond Index has returned over 9.5% per year.

The chart below was compiled by Gary Shilling and it represents the performance achieved by owning and maintaining the duration of the 25-year Treasury Strip. It does a better job of capturing the performance of the very long end of the yield curve, which has provided a dramatically higher return (19.1% per year) vs. stocks (10.8% per year) over the last 30 years.

Much can be said about the difference in performance over the last 30 years between equities and long Treasuries. Bonds provided a higher return with much less risk. Nevertheless, conventional Wall Street wisdom is that, over the long term, stocks should outperform bonds because stocks do contain more risk as an asset class than bonds. Certainly, much of the out-performance in bonds in the trailing 30 years has occurred since the stock market ran out of steam in the early part of the last decade. Late in 1999 and early 2000, stocks achieved valuation levels that were spectacular by historic standards. The dividend yield on the S&P 500 hit a low of 1.1% (see attachment) and the trailing 12-month reported P/E Ratio hit 35 times. Neither of these levels was in the same zip code as previous secular peaks. Since then, stocks have delivered negative price performance and the total return — less than 1% per year — is positive only because of dividends. On the other hand, Core CPI inflation, which is the primary determinant of long-term Treasury bond yields, has been declining continually since 1981 and has remained very consistently 2% to 3% below the long -bond yield (see chart below). Rarely have long-term Treasury Bonds been expensive relative to this primary valuation benchmark, and only for brief periods.

When presented with the track record, many pundits immediately conclude that 30 years of underperformance by stocks compared to bonds is a reason to expect equity market performance to improve. I have displayed the ubiquitous Ibbotson Chart (above), which I think is a party trick, but it has formed the graphic embodiment of the general Wall Street doctrine that “over the long haul, stocks outperform.”  In reality, 11% per year for 30 years is not bad for anything historically, be it stocks, bonds or modern art. In the case of stocks, it is especially stunning considering that stock prices were flat for the last 12 of the latest 30 year period. The fact that stock prices went parabolic from 1982 to 2000 convinced most investors that a linear reality existed, much as the belief in rising home prices became doctrine during the real estate bubble.

Here’s a relevant note from Merrill Lynch legend Bob Farrell, dated August 3, 2001:

A Secular Inflection Point?

“Change of a long term or secular nature is usually gradual enough that it is obscured by the noise caused by short-term volatility.  By the time secular trends are even acknowledged by the majority, they are generally obvious and mature.  In the early stages of a new secular paradigm, therefore, most are conditioned to hear only the short-term noise they have been conditioned to respond to by the prior existing secular condition.  Moreover, in a shift of secular or long term significance, the markets will be adapting to a new set of rules while most market participants will be still playing by the old rules.”

paradigm \ n\ 1: EXAMPLE, PATTERN; esp: an outstandingly clear or typical example or archetype.

We appear to have entered the process of mean reversion, and we must be reminded that mean reversion requires two extremes. It is not inconceivable that before the mean reversion is complete, stocks and bonds will display 30 year returns that are closer to 5% or 6%, or lower. In the case of stocks, a return to an appropriate mean over the intermediate term would require a sizable drop in prices. Coincidentally, so would a return to levels of valuation commensurate with historic bear market extremes. The dividend yield today on the S&P 500 is 2.1%. Something north of 5.5% has prevailed at normal bear market extremes in the past 86 years that are contained in the Ibbotson data (see S&P yield chart, above). It would take much more than a 50% drop in the market to bring the dividend yield down to bear market extremes. A much larger decline than that would be required over the intermediate term in order to revert the 30-year return back to 6%, which would represent a low end extreme.

This second chart from Bob Farrell displays one view of stock market valuation:

Quoting Farrell: “A return to the mean includes two extremes, not just one. One measure of valuation we consider valid is stock market capitalization as a percent of GDP.  From the 1920s to the 1990s, it only went over 80% once (1929) but since has been as high as 180% in 2000 and as low as 72% in 2008.  The current level of 110% is still high historically and only at a mid-level if you think history begins in the 1990s (see chart).”

And that leads me to thoughts on the “C” Wave. According to Bob Farrell, bear markets occur in three waves; A down, B up and finally C down. If we are headed for recession, then this latest decline phase is the beginning of the “C” Wave. In hindsight, the peak of the secular credit expansion that began at the conclusion of the Great Depression occurred in 2007 with the demise of the housing bubble. The Great Bull Market may have ended in 2000 (with Intel at $76), but the Bear Market did not begin until late 2007. That was the true secular inflection point. What happened in between was some kind of screwed up meat grinder. The “A” Wave began at the all-time highs on the S&P500 in October 2007 at 1576 and ended in March 2009 at 667. That was also the start of the “B” Wave that presumably ended in May 2011 at 1370, ushering in the current decline phase.

See-Saw Markets

Bull and bear markets display see-saw characteristics and seem to be a reflection of human nature which, generally speaking, does not change. Bob Farrell alluded to it in Rule#8: Bear markets have three stages – sharp down – reflexive rebound – a drawn-out fundamental downtrend. Dick Stoken took it a bit further:

“Because human psychology is slow to change, a broad economic move usually occurs in three stages. The first stage begins when some unexpected event shatters an overdone psychological environment. Yet, while some people respond immediately to this new lesson, most people, as they find it outside their past experience, do not believe it. They need more evidence- that is, a second stage. Typically, the majority become convinced during the second stage and therefore the psychological background changes. People begin to act differently, and their behavior soon affects the performance of the economy (my italics).”

Stoken’s Behavioral Model

Dick describes the “A” wave and the “C” Wave as impulse waves in which market participants are acting rationally in the face of disappointing fundamentals. The disbelief that occurs in the second stage allows for the “B” Wave, which is counter-trend.  Earlier, I quoted the paragraph written in 2001 by Bob Farrell pertaining to secular (long term) change because it deserves to be pinned to the wall right next to Market Rules to Remember.  He explains magnificently what the psychology of the “B” Wave is: disorientation. The “C” Wave of a secular bear market or a new paradigm occurs when investors become aware that a “new set of rules” is operative.

So what about the bond market? That bull market probably has a few years to go. For some reason, the popular focus is still on inflation and most market participants do not even know how to spell deflation. This is after the collapse in housing prices and a stock market that is lower in price than it was 12 years ago. Still, the only thing that market strategists seem to agree on is that danger lurks at the long end of the yield curve. (It is tough to lose money with that kind of sentiment.) Yes, 30-year Treasury bonds yields are down to 3%, but if they go to 2% over the near term, the total return will be much greater than the coupon. After all, we started 2011 at 4.33% and the total return on the 30 year coupon bond is 30% year to date. The long Treasury Strip is up 54%. The decline in rates can continue if Core CPI inflation continues to melt and the Fed stays on hold at 0% at the short end of the curve. Two weeks ago, the Fed lowered their forecast for GDP growth, employment and inflation through 2013. It is widely assumed that their explicit promise to hold rates at 0% through mid-2013 will have to be extended well into 2014. If we are heading into recession, Core CPI is likely to go negative (that’s right; the “D” word).

Tax-Frees Yielding 7%!

In addition to the potential in long-term Treasury bonds, Closed End Municipal Bond Funds are yielding close to 7%, tax free. Closed End Build America Bond Funds yield over 7.5% and sell at steep discounts to their net asset value and the underlying bonds have excellent call protection. Compare that to soap or hamburgers with a 3% dividend yield.

For the last four years since the bear market began, the investing public has been hoping for, and policy makers have been pushing for, a return to the old paradigm. That is to say, through a desire to bring back the good old days, there has been general acceptance of trying to solve the credit crisis and attendant economic and financial malaise with more debt and fiscal and monetary stimulus. After all, it did work (in some combination) in pulling us out of each of the recessions during the post WWII period up until now. But here we are-pushing on a string, engaged in a political revolution relative to deficit spending and the Fed is holding a water pistol. Repeated attempts to spur consumer spending through temporary policies like “cash for clunkers” and mortgage modification have been ineffective. So have other more general fiscal measures like reducing payroll taxes and extending unemployment benefits. The fact that households understand that they are over-indebted has resulted in conventional policy stimulus being rejected. In Europe, efforts to save the over-indebted peripheral countries have been similarly futile. It is becoming much more obvious that the easy road is not the one that leads to the solution. It will be a slower and longer road in every respect that will lead to the next expansion. We are not going to grow our way out of this.

Here in the New Secular Paradigm, we are just now learning that we need to play by a new set of rules. We apparently need to eliminate debt in a big way. We must return to levels of debt relative to GDP and household income that can be the base of the next secular economic expansion. Escape velocity cannot be achieved until debt levels mean-revert too. It will be the moral (and economic) equivalent of war. The compound interest table is a far more formidable foe than the Third Reich and we will be facing a federal government debt exceeding $18 trillion in the next few years. This is in addition to extreme levels of household and state and local government debt.

Baby Boomers’ Grim Reality

By a particularly evil twist of fate, the developed world’s Baby Boomers arrived on the doorstep of retirement in 2007 with a household debt/disposable income ratio exceeding 130%. That compares to a ratio of less than 30% at the end of WWII when they were being conceived. Let’s face it, we could not have timed the real estate mania any worse. Theoretically, we Boomers should be flush as we approach our 60s, but look around. The 80th percentile 57 year old household owes more in mortgage debt on their home(s) than they have in their 401Ks. So, going forward, the business of America is debt reduction. There is not, under any reasonable forecast, a growth outlook in the developed world that could trump the debt destruction that will be required for the credit collapse to come to completion. In the absence of growth, debt is eliminated via some combination of austerity and default.

The U.S. savings rate dropped from 5.3% to 3.6% in the three months ending September 2011, as the wealthy continued to save or pay down debt and the not-so-wealthy were buying gas and groceries on credit. The Supercommittee in Congress has decided to punt. Their daunting responsibility was to narrow the budget deficit through smoke, mirrors, increased taxes and cuts in entitlement spending. The politics evolved at lightning speed, leaving us to scratch our heads. But probably not for long. The winds of change are clearly blowing. It is reasonable to believe that political trends are also undergoing secular change. Why should we doubt that the American Democracy will defeat the compound interest table? We managed to prevail over every other dire threat in our history and preserve the Union. Here too, conventional wisdom is suffering from linear thinking.

What Can We Do Right?

So, what can do right? How can we avoid the hardship? How can growth return to levels where the debt can be serviced, causing inflation to increase and the Fed to tighten? I have been presented with several possibilities that come from people who are thoughtfully aware that a credit collapse is occurring. The most popular expectation is for a decoupling from the developed countries by the emerging markets. Countries like China have low debt and their enormous population is characterized by low consumer spending and high savings rates. Perhaps they can “emerge” into a level of domestic consumption that buoys the global economy even if they experience less export demand from the developed world. We can then continue to sell them more soap and hamburgers. Then there is the “killer app.” This refers most commonly to some invention like the steam engine or the Internet, but it could also be a geopolitical event — i.e., globalization or the end of a war (or two). It has to do with some unknown yet spectacular productivity enhancement that will drive the global economy. It better be really big and quick. Hope springs eternal.

I find it far more intellectually appealing to accept that we are simply overdue for a bit of winter and we need to deal with it. After all, everything that we have observed so far about the universe is cyclical. And that just brings me right back to Bob Farrell’s Market Rules to Remember.  Rule #2: “Excesses in one direction will lead to an opposite excess in the other direction” is why getting back to normal after a parabolic move requires a second excess before settling back to the mean. And yet, this is the last thing that conventional thinking typically allows for. At worst, periods of excess are expected to hold their gains (or losses) until the fundamentals catch up. More often, periods of excess are interpreted as the arrival of a “new era” in which past cyclicality has been defeated so history no longer applies.

Yields Uncorrelated

Fortunately, during the last 12 years of flat prices, the yield on the S&P 500 has doubled from 1.1% to 2.1%, catching up exclusively because dividends have gone up. But prior to 1995, the S&P 500 never traded richer than a 2.5% yield at any market peak. Current conventional thinking is either; dividend yield is an outdated valuation metric or, more popularly, 2.1% ain’t bad, considering that the 10-year Treasury only pays 2%. In fact, there is no correlation between Treasury note yields and dividend yield on the S&P 500. From 1932 through 1955, the yield on stocks was consistently above 6% while the 10-year Treasury note yield held below 2%. And yet, the pundits insist that the market is cheap today for some reason.

Returning to the issue that both stocks and bonds have achieved 10%+  total return performance annualized for the last 30 years, one has to wonder what an appropriate mean reversion target ought to be. Consider that real economic growth in the U.S. averaged less than 3.5% per year since late 1981. As the Ibbotson chart shows, core inflation has exceeded 5% in only three of the last 30 years. Further complicating the issue is that, since we have only recently (2007) entered into our credit collapse, real GDP growth for the next decade is bound to be much lower than 3.5%. Core inflation, which has been making its way down from over 13% in 1981 to less than 2% today, is likely to stick pretty close to zero for the next decade, if Japan’s experience is any guide. Low, single-digit returns (5% to 6%) may be the mean that we will be reverting to. Even during the credit expansion that was in force from the depths of the Great Depression to the peak of the housing bubble, annual total returns were around 9%.  As David Rosenberg is fond of saying, “You do the math.”

Reverting to the Mean

There are many possible scenarios for mean reversion of stock-market returns, but consider this: For the last 10 years of the current 30-year period, we have been subtracting the performance of 1972 through 1981 while we added the performance of 2002 through 2011. Both periods were remarkably flat (no price appreciation, just dividends). Going forward, we will be dropping the period starting in 1982. In 1982, the S&P 500 started the year at 123 and the dividend yield was 5.64%. Ten years later at the end of 1991, it was at 417, up 340% in price. Dividends almost doubled, but the yield had dropped to 2.91% due to the higher index price. The annualized return was more than 17.6% for those 10 years. If the market dropped in half (i.e., to 620 on the S&P 500) over the next couple of years, we would add negative 50% for 2012 and 2013 and drop off the 50% positive return from 1982 through 1983. That would lop off close to 3% from the 30-year annualized rate, to 7.2%. That would get close to the proposed mean. It would not qualify as an opposite extreme because that would require a number on the other side of 6%. If dividends stay at $26, the market will be yielding 4.2%. Nothing particularly extreme there either, but at least then, we would be getting somewhere.

***

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  • mava November 27, 2011, 6:57 am

    D.O.,

    It is nice to know how you really feel.
    When people come to the bank to withdraw, there will never be a problem. If it is expedient, then the bank will be closed, but the people will always get their money. Why? Because, there is no problem in creating paper. And, if as you say, there can someday be such a problem, then what the government will do is offer digital withdrawal. If this offer is not welcomed, then it can offer same digital option plus 5%. Not enough? It can offer same plus 100%, or 1000%. There is no limit.

    Gold $1500? As a correction? Why not. I would not argue against that. But to say that the gold will come down to $1500 to stay is to assume that there are actually honest people in the governments. Very naive, if you ask me. All claims on purchasing power must equal all goods and services at all times. All gold, too, must equal to all goods and services at all times. From here it can be deducted that all gold must also equal all paper and digital claims. This means that at, say, $2000, the POG is unreal, too low. Too many claims do exist.

    RA,
    (I like that, “RA”, sounds like “RA, the one and only”, no offense) have said above, that he has a trouble to see who would have the money to pay $50,000 for an ounce. The answer is simple, maybe not RA. But many people have that and more. Secondly, RA, do you really believe you are say, eight times richer that your parents were? They likely had one $10,000 car. You likely have two, $40,000 cars. Your dad could have asked the same question, “who would have $40,000 to buy such an expensive car!” Yet, not only you do have that, you also had another $40,000 to buy a second one. Magic of inflation. In original definition, inflation is an increase in quantity of money. Meaning that the government will see to it, that people do have $50,000 to exchange for an ounce of gold.

    Seawolf,

    I refer to “printed” money as stolen, for clarity.
    Here is my explanation:

    If I come to your wife and say you own me some money, and she pays me for it by giving me your car, would you not say I stole it?

    When I lied, I have produced a fraudulent claim, and when I took the car in exchange for my lie, I stole it.

    Money is a claim on goods and services. Yes, one can “print” counterfeit claims, or even create them digitally, but they are still nothing, until an exchange is made, and something real had been gotten for it. Printing or digitally creating is only a deception, a lie that these claims are real, but once FED buys something for them, it steals from everyone who holds his purchasing power in paper or digital claims.

    The FED has many layers of deception, this is because the Congress wants to be protected from the heinous crime that it commits through the FED. One of this layers is the belief that the FED is a private bank. But the act of printing money from the air, is no less a deception. It is only a lie to conceal that there is actually a theft going on.

    Most people believe that the government has or earns money. Fewer believe that the government prints or digitally creates money. Even fewer people know that that is a nonsense, that the government only lies that it can create something out of thin air, instead, it has to lie in order to steal.

  • nitram November 26, 2011, 7:26 pm

    ZSL 1,000 shares silver to $20 soon. Then soar. TBT buy 12/15/11. Rates are rising all over the world. It’s a global economy right?

  • Robert November 26, 2011, 6:23 pm

    Divergent Opinion:

    “Deflationary depression will wipe out hyper valuations of all assets. Gold and slver are EXTREMELY overpriced right now”

    -Please explain the difference between valuation and price?

    Does price denote value?

    Remember, I’m an idiot, so please keep it simple for my feeble old brain.

    I value my wife’s love- does that mean she is overlooking potential unrealized profits by not charging me more?

  • Chris T. November 25, 2011, 4:36 am

    Divergent Opinion:

    So, if inflation pulls down everything as you say, what do YOU do with your assets?
    All of them, according to you, will decline–one has to assume you believe, relative to money.

    Yet, your world-bank run scenario will quickly show people what a fiat system is.
    Do you think that holding some of the fiat paper currency in a physical form, not as a digital leger entry, will protect you?

    And then, everything in the fiat world, once the bank holiday is ended, will go back to normal, not having affected the paper money at all?
    Precedent is against you.

    Sort of illogical.
    Plus, what you say about the central banks may be true, but you think such powerlessness, as it may be, will keep them from trying and doing immense damage on the way?

  • Chris T. November 25, 2011, 4:26 am

    “The Fed is not buying treasuries from the primary dealers in order to insure a successful auction. There is still plenty of demand for that. The Fed is performing an under the table QE lite. ”

    To keep the rates low, by keeping the prices high.
    But, if there were true marked demand for all that paper parked with the primary dealers (for 10-20min), then why do they not just unload it, AT THAT PRICE, to that true demand?

    The effect on bond prices and yields would be the same.
    But they can not, because at the price the Fed pays, no one else is buying.

    So, I don’t see that point.
    Now, is the Fed flushing new money into the system in order to keep yields low, prices high, or are they keeping yields low, prices high in order to push the new money out there?
    The last seems to be your argument, ultimately it doesn’t matter, effect is the same.

  • Seawolf November 24, 2011, 9:24 pm

    Hey Mighty Mouth, you’re back again and just as before you cannot stay on topic. This time you wasted a whole lot of space to say nothing. You talk just to hear your own voice.

  • Divergent Opinion November 24, 2011, 9:10 pm

    Kids, kids, ancient kids. You senile folk are so funny, you are beyond words. Do you know what I use you for, ahole turkeys? A CONTRARY indicator. until you imbeciles START to even DOUBT your position, I KNOW, IN DEAD CERTITUDE, YOU ARE DEAD WRONG, DECREPIT MORONS.

    RA wrote me back a good repost, but, RA, I disagree. Just look at the ROCKHEADED old idiots you have gathered eating daily pasture on your site, that should tell you, just how far you have strayed from the most unavoidable truth of all, the unpayable unthinkable debt, pumped up for decades.

    Mental RETARDS, you misunderstand all I say, since basically, you are vegetables. I do not ‘love’ fiats. All I am WARNING you drooling clowns repeatedly about, is that the central bankers’ powers worldwide, are practically NIL, in comparison to the ENORMOUS UNPAYABLE DEBT (at a current ratio of 3 to 800–and not 1 to 800, as some jackass misquoted me above). And that these central bankers are FOOLING YOU, into believing that they can actually avoid, by fiat dilution, the crashing debt wave, that is straight ahead, in front of you ancient eyes, if only you would wake up out of your DEADENED STUPOR, and admit, that EVERY COIN, HAS TWO SIDES, AND NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU FIXATE ON ONLY ONE SIDE, IT WILL NOT MAKE THE OTHER SIDE DISAPPEAR.

    Deflationary depression will wipe out hyper valuations of all assets. Gold and slver are EXTREMELY overpriced right now, and the ony reason for that, is that most 21st century humans STILL believe in Santa Claus, and the Wizard of Oz. And you, droolcup fools, are amongst them.

    Have any of you, considered, the effect of a bankrun, of even one, international large bank? Tell your leader RA, to school you on that effect, in today’s world. How much fiats does a worldbigbank truly hold? How soon before they close their doors, the same day? And what effect would that closure have, on the rest of the big banks, and the world’s economy? You think people would be buying gold and silver then?

    Hey, whatever, I am just waring you old idiots. Do whatever you want, it’s your life, and I could care less, whether you live or die. But, when something is so OBVIOUS to me, that no one can see it, I state it, just to see how the rats will scurry, from the statement. Interesting indeed, from the panic I have caused, from waking you for one instant, from your sedentary STUPID senile dreamworld.

    And leibowitz, don’t you worry, as of this moment, you are in their camp.

    But I cannot leave, without listing prime donkey blinder stooges on this site.

    1. Robert. Biggest idiot of all, way beyond help.
    2. mava. Too many drugs, at a tender young age.
    3. Cam F. Yet I got a feeling, he’s tongue-in-cheek.

    ————-

    GREAT ENTERTAINING SITE!
    KEEP UP THE MADNESS, FOOLS!

    —————

    And when you start considering BOTH sides of the argument,
    THEN I will start to worry, that MAYBE pm prices have bottomed.

    But just start to consider it.

    —————–

    Gold at low $1500’s, silver at $27 minimum, straight ahead.

    And do gobble gobble those turkeys, perennial fools, with brains same size as those fat birds.

    • A. Rand Fan November 25, 2011, 6:47 am

      In my persuit of the truth I read all opinions, once you tripped into the gutter of name calling I was a bit disappointed. But not much.

    • gary leibowitz November 25, 2011, 7:21 pm

      Did you state whether we already hit that low for now or are we going much lower? I am curious if you have a crystal ball that works better than mine.

      I have 1030 on the SPX as the possible turning point but think 1150 will hold here for at least one more month.

      You gave your gold/silver year end price target but not equities. I know you can’t say with any certainty if we go lower in stock price from here because you just can’t. You have many factors playing against each other. Year end stock dressing and bonus based on performance, big holiday seasonality, against a collapsing EU, and downgrade of domestic GDP.

      Now if you can actualy answer this question with your usual boasting and it comes to pass I will be impressed.

      I am very rarely impressed. So please, go out on the limb and give your year end SPX price.

    • Robert November 26, 2011, 3:44 am

      “Do you know what I use you for, ahole turkeys? A CONTRARY indicator. until you imbeciles START to even DOUBT your position, I KNOW, IN DEAD CERTITUDE, YOU ARE DEAD WRONG, DECREPIT MORONS.”

      -Smart- using the opinions of about 20 “senile old fools” who converse in Rickackerman.com forum as a basis for a contrary point of view.

      I think you’ve unlocked the secret to untold millions in profits.

      But ummm…. What about Ben Bernanke? is he going to throw up his arms and let the deflation loose (going against his own 2002 thesis in the process?)

      deflation and inflation are simply the results of political decisions.

      Agree, the world is awash in unpayable debt. What was the substance again that history has reverted to in order to expunge unpayable debts for thousands of years?

      Oh that’s right… it was US Treasury Bonds.

    • mario cavolo November 27, 2011, 4:34 pm

      DO, What the…? I have been a contributor here at Rick’s forum for about 3 years.

      I have taken an extra moment out of my day to kindly send this post of yours by copy email to Rick, reminding him that it is incredibly out of line, rude and inappropriate for this forum.

      You really need to understand that your kind of inflammatory, over the top personally insulting writing is not appropriate nor welcome here.

      As to the rest of the folks who have replied to you, I kindly remind them that posts like yours dont’ deserve the time and energy required to offer an intelligent reply.

      If I am being “up on my pulpit” with this as far as anyeone is concerned, so be it. I am happy to defend the quality of this site. This is a site for intelligent approach, theme, and argument, I have never seen it to be anything other than that, so putting up with this shit that you have posted is a waste of everyone’s time, intelligence and energy and doesn’t belong here.

      Mario

  • Dennis November 24, 2011, 9:00 pm

    Hello to whom it may concern:
    We have economic stagnation (low growth) with rising debt burdens; the worst of both worlds – not DEFLATION!

    Rick please consider posting a current point of view from Martin Armstrong

  • mava November 24, 2011, 7:43 pm

    Seawolf, while you’re right about stealth QE III, we do not know what the auctions would be like in absence of FED buying in exchange for stolen money.

    • Seawolf November 24, 2011, 8:38 pm

      To which parcel of stolen money to you refer? The Fed has a computer keyboard so when they purchase a treasury they use fresh digi-dollars.

      The Fed buying is for their own balance sheet, replacing maturing paper with new paper or lubricating the WSC.

  • Chris T. November 24, 2011, 12:40 am

    “The euro came under pressure due to the surprise collapse in new Eurozone industrial orders which led to Germany failing to get bids for 35% of bunds offered.”

    Scary, sure, but without the Fed manipulation (with them buying back the positions within minutes of the so-called participants’s bid-purchases), where would our real failure rate be?

    • Seawolf November 24, 2011, 3:37 pm

      The Fed is not buying treasuries from the primary dealers in order to insure a successful auction. There is still plenty of demand for that. The Fed is performing an under the table QE lite. The Fed is ensuring that that the WSC (Wall Street Casino) will be kept properly greased (nearly free money). All that financial gearing (leverage) requires continuous application of lubricant.

  • Chris T. November 24, 2011, 12:36 am

    “What happened in between was some kind of screwed up meat grinder.”

    What happened in between was the most egrious manifestation of Greenspan!, continuing in the ignoble tradition of all his predecessors.

    The “B” wave is Bernanke using Greenspan’s playbook, with the very visible less success, never even able to produce tops above the prior peaks (which Greenspan helped to produce by late 2007).

    Finally bond prices:
    Because it is via its Open Market operations that the Fed does the above, is it any wonder that bonds did as you show?

    As to munis:
    They are the first in the layer of government debt to fall, less likely to be “bailed” out than the states, and municipalities are already the first layer where we see the most drastic effect of deficit-spending.

    Why should these be safe?
    The tax-free status is just the honey on the fly-trap.

    Even if things still look hunky-dory now, when TSHTF, all one will care about is the return of the asset, and not the 7% tax-free return on it.

    • mava November 24, 2011, 6:27 am

      “The tax-free status is just the honey on the fly-trap.”

      As far as I understand government policies, this is exactly right. Pure wisdom.

      About Greenspan, I am glad that he did that. Without him, this system would be way harder to bring down. Better temporary crisis, than a long life under the unholy cabal of unconstitutional money.

  • david casciano November 23, 2011, 11:29 pm

    german bond auction failure.spread b/w us and german bonds widening.double a rating is the new benchmark.lol fed funding imf in stealth global qe.deflation is momentary as the printing presses will create inflationary forces and risk on activity soon.inflation evident in consumers lives with food and energy.why complicate tings.war is coming in mideast…iran/russia/ china vs usa/europe and israel.

  • Seawolf November 23, 2011, 9:29 pm

    At JP Morgan they only have to sell 30 claims on a single oz. of unallocated gold for it to be worth $50k to them today. In the real world of 1 to 1 $50k would imply a return to the gold standard in some way or be on the verge of hyper-inflation.

  • gary leibowitz November 23, 2011, 9:19 pm

    DO,

    Not sure I like my name mentioned with your diatribe. While I do agree with you on most subjects I am still not convinced gold falls hard. I never expected it to rally this high either.

    As for the market drop, I am not convinced we go straight down from here. I have support at 1150 on the SPX. If it hold there could be a nice rally for a month or more. If it doesn’t hold than 1030 is my traget.

    I did expect a sharp “purge” to end this drop and so far it’s not happening. Perhaps by the end of today we shall have one.

    Your anger remind me of why I get angry. It is usually because the market is not behaving as expected and frustration sets in until it finally capitulates.

  • Seawolf November 23, 2011, 7:50 pm

    Couple of interesting lines from the Gold Core offering over on http://www.goldseek.com.

    “The euro came under pressure due to the surprise collapse in new Eurozone industrial orders which led to Germany failing to get bids for 35% of bunds offered. The German 10 year bund yield rose sharply from 1.92% to over 2.06%”

    “The bond auction in Germany is a disaster. If Germany has to buy its own bonds, it is frightening to think how other European nations, including France, will fare at bond auctions in the coming weeks.”

  • Rich November 23, 2011, 7:26 pm

    Nice to see DB’s blog by a fellow Merrill Alum (from 1976 to 1986), when half the hires/trainees left the firm and their accounts with the survivors.

    Merrill, Farrell and Shilling scored big with the ‘Dawn of A New Bull Market’ ad campaign from 1981.

    Many clients were very happy to lock in 14% CATS and TIGERS (zero-coupon stripped Treasuries) until children’s college, their retirement or beyond, even if they had phantom (taxable) income unless they were in a tax-free account.

    A few managed to dodge margin calls and make a lot of money with 10% down on the Long Bond.

    Gary had an interesting background as Phi Beta Kappa Physics major at Amherst, Stanford PhD, Exxon, then Merrill’s first Market Economist. Like Stan Salvigsen, a RE Bear who successfully shorted his own home with a sale/leaseback, and Dave Rosenberg, now at Gluskin, the correct bearishness of all three was anathema to the thundering herd.

    Gary used to have a framed letter on his wall to Merrill CEO Don Regan (later Reagan’s Treasury Secretary), from a customer complaining about his market bearishness in 1973, spot on, and unpopular.

    Perhaps the most valuable point of DB’s blog is that a decline from 4% Treasury Rates to 2% can be a 100% capital gain, perhaps why Hank Paulson sold his GS stock tax free (by special dispensation for High Level Government Appointees) and put it into Treasuries.

    It is historical fact that Bonds>Equities for the last 30 years. About the next 30 years, I am not so sure.

    And for the last decade, as pointed out by DB and several commentators here, Gold>Bonds>Equities.

    History rhymes more than repeats.

    Yet re bullish on bonds here, I am currently agnostic.

    The TYX Point and Figure chart now targets 2.694% to 4.9%, a recipe for capital loss if true.

    What is missing, as some commentors pointed out, is the relevant discussion of the cost of living. When Rip Van Winkle woke up, his bond broker told him he was a millionaire. But when the Operator told him his call was $10,000 for the first minute…

    Allan Greenspan implied with Ayn Rand in 1966, that gold might offer protection against his later work as Fed Chairman. And Ron Paul predicted AG will return to the Gold Standard down the road.

    So if we divide SPX by GOLD, we see a decline from 108 to 59, a loss of -45% purchasing power in just two years.

    And if we divide $USB by GOLD, we see a decline from 178 to 74, a loss of -58% purchasing power in just three years.

    Warren Buffett also demonstrated this by selling Silver from BRK/A. Silver quintupled while BRK went sideways. Not bad for a barborous relic…

    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Maynard_Keynes

  • Robert November 23, 2011, 6:46 pm

    Interesting timing-

    Tom brought up Jim Rogers above. Here is what Richard Russell had to say yesterday, which also goes 100% contradictory to Doug B:

    “My advice: We are moving closer and closer to what I call “survival period” — the period where the magic of compounding turns into what will be the poison of compounding. This isn’t a time for timing. This is a time for action. Reduce your exposure to bonds and all items that provide fixed interest rates. Similarly, reduce your exposure to stocks except the gold miners. Look to expand your positions in inflation-protected assets, especially gold.”

    “Those who are holding stocks in the hopes of the usual rebound are going to be terribly disappointed in the years ahead. This bear market is going to be unlike anything we’ve ever seen before. In the end my survival vehicle will be gold. I say again, timing is hopeless. Gold will have purchasing power and true wealth as almost everything else is destroyed by this unprecedented bear market. The US Government is now so loaded with ever-growing debt that it has become a mathematical freak. We return to different times, when rising interest rates will eat up the US government. With $55 trillion in assorted debts, the US is in no shape to deal with rising interest rates. We are in a state of reverse compounding, leading to inevitable bankruptcy on a massive scale.”

    Of course, Richard Russel is one of those zany, senile gold bugs too, so what does he know?

    However, RR accurately equates deleveraging with bankruptcy… and not with deflation. Why, you ask?

    Simple- because debt deleveraging and bankruptcy are NOT the same as contracting money supplies, and they are CERTAINLY not the same as price declines due to the loss of price stickiness that occurs when economic forces overwhelm the financiers’ ability to blow ever more smoke into ever fewer mirrors.

    Oh, speaking of mirrors- you know that most are made using silver, right? 🙂

    If you have made money with DougB, then fantastic- good for you. Every time you flip the swich on the wall, the light in the room goes on… Until the bulb burns out; and that one time finally comes where no matter how many times that switch is flipped, the room is staying dark.

    • Buster November 23, 2011, 7:50 pm

      Here is an insight into how bad things are. When even the crooks are robbing eachother you know we’re getting close to all out chaos:

      http://rt.com/programs/keiser-report/episode-210-max-keiser/

      The main point that is emphasized is that when it comes to the moment the ship’s gonna’ get skuttled, the only ones allowed in the lifeboats are the 1% of the 1%. Even those who sell themselves by doing their bidding in exchange for a little share of the loot are left to drown along with the sheeple.
      Ultimately, though, this Babylon is going down in it’s entirety sooner or later, as the light is shone upon her misdeads & the people withdraw in disgust, probably. The final blow will be done at the hands of the very governements that have allowed this group of international crooks to covertly control the history of the world for so long, causing so many to suffer displacement, poverty & wars. Not that this end will be a final solution to our woes, but at least it’s a ‘just’ end for such a heinous organisation of crooks.
      Get your ass & your assets out of the system while you can, or according to this Kaiser Report, more accurately ‘IF’ you can.

  • C.C. November 23, 2011, 6:36 pm

    “On the other hand, Core CPI inflation, which is the primary determinant of long-term Treasury bond yields, has been declining continually since 1981 and has remained very consistently 2% to 3% below the long -bond yield”

    Repeated throughout this piece, at least 2 or 3 times, is reference to ‘Core CPI’ and its downward trend.

    By what metrics may I ask? Were revisions to the CPI in the early 1980’s and again in the early 1990’s and yet again most recently, factored in? Were ‘substitutions’, ‘hedonics’ and ‘geometric weighting’ factored in? How about dog food for steak?

    References to ‘core CPI’ as a metric to bolster the deflationary argument are growing Real Old… As John Williams would say: ‘GDP and CPI’ as measured by the government today are not only unreliable tools, they are a Sham’.

    This is not a ‘natural’ market and so it is well that we should expect unnatural consequences for the meddling that has occurred as a result. Long drawn out affairs of ‘de-leveraging’ and paying down debts to the mean are not part of the process in the current environment. The canary in the economic coal mine isn’t rising because people think their $dollars buy more today than they did in 2000, or that it’s just a cool thing to buying right now.

    Good luck with your ‘bonds’.

    • Robert November 23, 2011, 6:54 pm

      “Good luck with your ‘bonds’.”

      -Love the perfectly placed single quotes.

      Does ANYONE here even bother to grasp that a Bond is merely a promise to “Gladly pay you Tuesday, for a hamburger today”….?

      Am I the only one that found Whimpy to be an annoying mooch? Even as a 5 year old kid I though it was a great travesty of dis-service to society that instead of wasting his spinich energy on Bluto, that Popeye didn’t instead just punch Whimpy into outer space, once and for all…

      Bond = debt = servitude = lieniage = penury = immorality.

  • Tom November 23, 2011, 6:12 pm

    Robert apparently DO has gone back into the cave he/she has been living in for the bulk of his/her existence. As for myself I have no idea what tomorrow is going to bring as the banksters have proven themselves to be crooks, but I have no debt, and own stock in gold mines and have bullion and a large supply of non-perishable food. I live on a lake and have a boat and fishing gear. and water purification supplies. And I am really enjoying being retired, volunteering at a local hospital . Hope everyone including DO has a Thankful Holiday and reflects on all we have to be truly thankful for and those of us with a little extra can share with our neighbors who have less.

    • Buster November 23, 2011, 6:25 pm

      Well said Tom. If everyone looked out for the necesities & their neighbours then this corrupt world wouldn’t be half as hard to bear.

    • Robert November 23, 2011, 6:59 pm

      Tom (and all)

      Enjoy your holiday as well.

      Who knows? maybe D.O. will be one of the “occupiers” downtown that I will be delivering free Turkey, stuffing and mashed potatos to on Thursday morning, before spend the evening in the company of family and friends.

      I wonder if I’ll get a thanks for my generosity, or a look of consternation and righteousness as I grant them their “entitlement” to a Thanksgiving meal…?

      Either way, I understand how the spirit of sharing will make ME feel, and that’s all I’m really interested in…

    • mava November 23, 2011, 10:24 pm

      To, very good point.

      Besides, whether D.O. is right or wrong, will be seen, but, I appreciate his bravery in posting an opinion that is so different from the prevailing one. I remember the times when I was posting about gold being money and get immediately LOL-ed at and ridiculed to no end. It was tough, but someone had to say it.

      So, if D.O. is correct, then it is tough, but someone has to say it. Peace, D.O.!

      Happy thanksgiving everyone and please, remember the true story of thanksgiving (individual responsibility and rejection of collectivism) as opposed to a doctored version they have been pushing everywhere.

  • Seawolf November 23, 2011, 6:04 pm

    Good morning Mighty Mouth (or divergent opinion as he thinks he should be known). I regret to inform that todays subject is not gold, nor gold as savings,or gold as insurance. It is not even about gold bugs, whatever they are.

    Todays subject is bonds, their potential to continue to rise in price and the possible effect this may have on the economy. Please stay on subject or at least near todays subject. If you must speak please try to do so without the insults.

  • Robert November 23, 2011, 6:04 pm

    On other thing:

    If the printing presses stop, then why do we need central banks?

    If the Fed was killed tomorrow, then yes- debt deleveraging would into cataclysmic overdrive, but that would not be bearish for commodities, because the second that debt is finally deemed to be unpayable (by the borrower) they default, and they lock up every ounce of liquidity they have in ANYTHING that is real and tangible.

    Anyone/Everyone expecting a replay of the 1930’s is delusional.

    But what do I know? I’m just a pea brain gold bug, right D.O?

  • Tom November 23, 2011, 5:45 pm

    And finally as to your prescient call two weeks ago for a decline in gold and silver prices, maybe the implosion of MF had something to do with it. Please read JIM ROGERS take on this .
    Decline in Commodities Is ‘Artificial’: Jim Rogers
    Published: Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 | 9:52 AM ET

    By: CNBC.
    The recent decline in commodity prices has little to do with fundamentals and everything to do with the collapse of brokerage firm MF Global, says renowned investor Jim Rogers, who described the sell-off as artificial.
    Jim Rogers during a visit to Wenzhou in China.
    “With MF Global going bankrupt – which was a gigantic commodities firm – there was a lot of artificial forced liquidation of commodities. People have to sell whether they like it or not. It’s artificial selling right now,” Rogers told CNBC on Wednesday.

    The CRB Jefferies Index – which serves as a measure of the broad commodities complex – has fallen 4 percent since MF Global declared bankruptcy nearly 4 weeks ago. Agricultural commodities have been the hardest hit, with rice futures falling more than 14 percent and wheat futures down 9 percent in the period.

    Rogers says the drop isn’t surprising. “This happened before in 2008, when Lehman and AIG went bankrupt, they were both huge in commodities and everybody had to sell,” he said, referring to the onset of the global financial crisis in late 2008, when the CRB Index fell by half in a matter of months. Prices have rebounded since, climbing nearly 60 percent from March 2009 to May this year, when the sector took a hit again on concerns over the headwinds facing the global economy.

    Rogers remains bullish on the sector, saying investors will benefit whether the global economy improves or not.

    “I’m long commodities and currencies, because if the world gets better, the shortages in commodities will make sure I make money; if the world economy doesn’t get better, I’d rather own commodities because they’re going to print money,” he said, referring to the easy monetary policy central banks have taken in the last few years to stimulate anemic growth.

    “Throughout history, when things have gone wrong, they print money…when they print money, you should own silver [XAG= 31.45 -1.25 (-3.82%)], you should own rice, you should own real assets.
    Rogers says he is using the recent drop in prices to accumulate agricultural commodities, and is waiting to add positions in gold [XAU= 1680.29 -19.50 (-1.15%)]. While he expects the yellow metal to reach $2,400 sometime in the next five to twenty years, he believes its run-up in the last 11 years has been “unusual” and needs a “rest”.

    “Gold could go down a fair bit more…but I’m certainly going to buy more gold if it goes down and silver.”

    This not a time to buy stocks, Rogers added, and says he is shorting the asset class.

    “This is like the 1970s, in the 1970s stocks did nothing. Commodities went through the roof. I’m short stocks and long commodities for the most part.”

    Divergent to me you sound like someone who is upset because he/she has missed out on the hugh run up in gold and silver. Perhaps you haven’t bought any gas or food in the past few years, but it seems to me that prices are appreciatively higher. I believe that is inflation and if you think that fuel and food prices are going down in the future I have some ocean front property in Arizona that you might be interested in.

    • Seawolf November 23, 2011, 6:27 pm

      Blogs that I have been reading indicate that about 30% of the comex traders were taken out by th MF implosion. Those who could keep trading had to put up their margin again or have their position liquidated.

  • mava November 23, 2011, 5:30 pm

    Seawolf,

    Very interesting overview of how other things depend on the fraud. I haven’t looked in to that. Thank you.

  • mava November 23, 2011, 5:29 pm

    D.O. is out of his mind. But, who said we do know best? Let us wait and see….

    BTW, D.O. you did not provide the definition for deflation either. My best guess is you have no idea what it is, and you just keep throwing the word in to appear as if you knew what you talking about.

    And, so that you know, the government can not confiscate gold held properly. Only a fool would hold it where the government can reach it. They can try and they will take it from those still living in the matrix, for instance from their “safe” deposit boxes. Other fools will get scared and just give it up.

    But those who know what they are doing will obtain power through rejection as is the law everywhere. Easycakes gets eaten, and those with options – rule. The whole act of buying gold is a political statement of withdrawal of consent to be governed by a mob of idiots.

    But, why am I telling you all this, you don’t even know the definition of a word you are using all the time, and you actually believe that fiat is money and gold is not money. (Quite an achievement of willpower, I think, – I could not make myself believe in miracles as strong as you have shown).

  • Tom November 23, 2011, 4:52 pm

    Hey divergent tell us what you really think?Anyone who has to resort to name calling to make his/her point is usually lacking in real facts. Lets wait and see what gold is at the end of the year. And gold and silver have historically been considered money by most societies.Of course I have no idea what planet you have been living on.

    • Robert November 23, 2011, 5:47 pm

      Tom-

      Clearly D.O. is correct and you (and I ) don’t get it.

      Gold only WAS money for the past 4920 years.

      For the past 80 years, humanity has demonstrated that Bankers turned Politicians are the supreme form of alpha being, and that anyone with an IQ above 60 can in fact be marginalized by the masses of stupidity who prefer to bow to the altar of other people.

      We might as well surrender and admit that Caesar is here to stay.

      Now, regarding the Bond market: Doug B. – Your thesis is very well formed, and supported by analysis that is only missing one thing that I can see; so my only question to you is:

      How low can Bond yields go in real terms?

      History tells us that it is usually at the exact moment that any financial thesis seems to offer guaranteed returns in perpetuity, that it has completed its journey into the realm if irrationality.

      So, if it’s true that markets can stay rational longer than one can remain solvent, then you seem to be betting your entire premise on nothing more solid than this euphemistic likelihood.

      Me? I’m going with Bill Gross.

      Oh, and Mr D.O- regarding your Gold and Silver calls:

      Jet A has gone up 32% in the past 18 months- what will the price of unleaded/diesel/jetA be when Silver is $5?

      I asked you before, but you never replied: How short are you? How many shares of ZSL do you have?

  • Divergent Opinion November 23, 2011, 4:27 pm

    FINALLY. Someone that can actually think, allowed on this (“ship of -utterly demented goldbug- fools”) website (though doug is rather long-winded, and a 50% greek haircut of words, would have served just as well).

    DEFLATION, goldbug fools. Dead ahead. Deflation beyond your tiny brain comprehension. 2 weeks ago, I predicted a market drop, along with gold and silver drop.

    Both have occurred, and will continue to fall, along with the stockmarket, since gold and silver ARE NOT MONEY, they are ONLY COMMODITIES, and their pricing is based SOLELY ON FIAT LIQUIDITY.

    And liquidity is dropping daily, since in “printing press” truth, there are ONLY about 3 REAL fiats, per 800 fiats of DEBT, in today’s REAL world. You think central bankers can beat those odds, 800 to 3? Keep dreaming, goldbugs fools, and straight into stunned penury.

    All central bankers can do is talk and talk and talk, keeping suckers in as long as possible, inside the greatest financial multi-decade scam ever perpetrated by the 10%, upon the 90%, of mankind (and I prefer the 10-90 ratio, asmore historically, consistently real, that the unrealistic 1-99 ratio, that the OWS crowd placards dramatically espouse).

    But, seriously, diehard goldbugs, how can you be so foolish, can’t you see the charts, can’t you see the massive under 2000 dollars doubl top with 98% bulls at the time, can’t you see anything, except your faith in the words and scams of central bankers, to keep you in, as their perfect hardheaded biggest suckers?

    And can’t you even see, that if your wildest dream fantasies of gold at 50 thousand dollars an ounce were(even remotely) come close to being, that politicians would immediately confiscate your gold from you under the threat of longterm imprisionment (as FDR did) if you failed to turn it in, even if held abroad?

    The usual suspect poster on this website, always amaze me, I mean, are all of you senile, except leibowitz?

    ———-

    Ok. New prediction time. Gold hits low $1500’s before end of 2011, silver hits MINIMUM $27, and possibly much lower.

    So have a nice day, and do keep drinking your gold/silver bigtime SUCKER koolaid.

    More and MORE DEFLATION, straight ahead.

    ——–

    And like I said before, and I’ll say it again: I will not consider even buying 1 ounce of gold until is back under 300 dollars, and silver back under $5, in the depths of the forthcoming world DEFLATIONARY depression, probably bottoming 3-5 years from now.

    • Robert November 23, 2011, 6:19 pm

      “And liquidity is dropping daily, since in “printing press” truth, there are ONLY about 3 REAL fiats, per 800 fiats of DEBT, in today’s REAL world. You think central bankers can beat those odds, 800 to 3? Keep dreaming, goldbugs fools, and straight into stunned penury.”

      Ok- My other reponses to you were civil (in spite of your inflammatory style) but for this one I have to be a bit more direct:

      The comment quoted above classifies you as either:

      A) A willing and practiced antagonizer, or

      B) Stone stupid.

      The REAL world you allude to is nothing more than the fairyland that encircles WashingtonDC and New York.

      The power to print fiat currency is not the exclusive domain of the Federal Reserve. Ever heard of a US Treasury Note, genius?

      Your 800:1 ratio is completely arbitrary. It can be whatever ratio the idiocracy wants it to be, and legal tender laws place no limit of how many Federal Reserve Notes can be “extinguished” by Treasury Notes. It’s all smoke in mirrors.

      But yeah, sure- pretty soon corn growers are going to have no reason to plant their crops because the starving people out there are not going to be willing to work hard enough to earn a little corn…

      The real world… give me a break. I’ve traveled to Africa, India, and Latin America. I’ve seen the real world.

    • Rick Ackerman November 23, 2011, 8:58 pm

      A fact unmentioned in my intro to Doug’s essay is that a short-gold position (acquired, incidentally, near June’s all-time highs) is an important part of his portfolio. Will he be right? Possibly, at least on price. But I have my doubts where purchasing power is concerned. Historically speaking, Gold has done quite well in deflationary times relative to a basket of goods — or to a basket of investable assets, for that matter — and it’s hard to imagine that that will change. At the very least, gold and silver coins and ingots seem likely to play an important role, as will cash money, in the barter economy that is coming.

      That said, I agree that there is reason for skepticism toward the $50,000-an-ounce scenario. After all, in the throes of a Mindanao-deep economic Depression, who will have $50,000 to exchange for a Krugerrand or a Maple Leaf? But there will remain the theoretical possibility of a spectacular but fleeting price spike in bullion, since all who hold paper claims on gold or silver will try to exercise them. Of course, securities regulators will not enforce those claims, since they could not expect JP Morgan and their ilk to make good on them. Under the circumstances, if gold were to be short-squeezed to astronomical levels, its detumescence would be nearly as ferocious. In the meantime, with only a brief window of opportunity, few hoarders of gold will get to trade it at $50k/oz for farmland, the one asset that is certain to outperform.

      Bottom line, my strong gut feeling is that no matter how the financial collapse unfolds, it is extremely unlikely that those who possess gold and silver when the dust settles will look like fools.

    • hawaiilaw November 24, 2011, 12:00 am

      HeyDivergent – How can we get ahold of you so that when gold is far above $1500 end of this year we can point the finger at u and laugh at your sorry, ignorant ass? I think you sore bc u missed the gold rally. U will be dead and gone before u (or ur heirs) get to buy gold again at under 300. LOL at you 10000 times!

    • A. Rand Fan November 25, 2011, 6:23 am

      You remind of that financial guy who for the last 10 years has said GOLD is going DOWN. Fundamentals have not changed. Well, except for the hit they did on mf global which is out right criminal. Also, I don’t get the sense that you live in a world where honesty is a virtue.

  • Buster November 23, 2011, 4:20 pm

    I don’t know if everyone’s familiar with ‘The Kaiser Report’, but here is the link to todays interesting report on events, detailing how Koch Brothers got advanced warning prior to MF Globals lock down:

    http://rt.com/programs/keiser-report/episode-213-max-financial/

  • roger erickson November 23, 2011, 3:53 pm

    additional must-read material

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lords_of_Finance

    US Tsy is sitting on (with accrued interest) $50 billion in “Sixty-two year 3 -3 1/2 per cent Gold Bonds” in its vaults that the United Kingdom stopped paying on in 1931 but has never repudiated.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=yc8WAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA403&lpg=PA403&dq=#v

    http://moslereconomics.com/2011/11/21/germany-takes-the-world-down-take-3/#comments

  • roger erickson November 23, 2011, 3:18 pm

    We’re seeing population growth simultaneous with declining coordination. The only possible outcome is stagnating Aggregate Demand.

    All would be well advised to actually read this account of the last time we launched such a global effort to actually decrease Aggregate Demand.

    http://www.gutenberg.org/files/15776/15776-h/15776-h.htm

    The Economic Consequences of the Peace (1919) was John Maynard Keynes’ first hand commentary on the Treaty of Versailles. He had been the British Treasury’s representative at the Versailles Conference.
    [note that they were all on a gold std then, and much of the War Reparations were payable in actual gold]

    This piece points out some of the parallels between now and then.
    http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=17006&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+economicoutlook%2FFYvo+%28billy+blog%29

    • mava November 23, 2011, 5:33 pm

      Year, Roger, in case you did not know, Keynes has been refuted and rejected for about half a century already. So, not worth the time, buddy. It’s O.K., I’ve done exactly the same before, there is always a day when we didn’t get the memo.

    • Rich November 23, 2011, 8:09 pm

      Speaking of Keynes:

      When the accumulation of wealth is no longer of high social importance, there will be great changes in the code of morals. We shall be able to rid ourselves of many of the pseudo-moral principles which have hag-ridden us for two hundred years, by which we have exalted some of the most distasteful of human qualities into the position of the highest virtues. We shall be able to afford to dare to assess the money-motive at its true value.

      The love of money as a possession — as distinguished from the love of money as a means to the enjoyments and realities of life — will be recognised for what it is, a somewhat disgusting morbidity, one of those semi-criminal, semi-pathological propensities which one hands over with a shudder to the specialists in mental disease … But beware! The time for all this is not yet. For at least another hundred years we must pretend to ourselves and to everyone that fair is foul and foul is fair; for foul is useful and fair is not.

      Avarice and usury and precaution must be our gods for a little longer still. For only they can lead us out of the tunnel of economic necessity into daylight.

      “The Future”, Essays in Persuasion (1931) Ch. 5, JMK, CW, IX, pp.329 – 331, Economic Possibilities for our Grandchildren (1930); as quoted in “Keynes and the Ethics of Capitalism” by Robert Skidelsy

      Life, liberty and love are our best LT Long Trades.

      Happy Thanksgiving All….

  • Seawolf November 23, 2011, 5:31 am

    The author of this piece expects bond prices to continue to rise and yields to fall over the near future. Raising prices of any good usually imply that demand for that good is exceeding available supply. The good the author appears to be referring to in this case is only federal government debt. No other debt has been referenced.

    The Wall Street Casino absorbs very large amounts of this government debt to use as collateral for loans to fund the leverage for their derivatives betting. The demand does in fact exceed supply. Wall street needs every bond they can get their hands to maintain their derivatives mountain. Up until now Congress has been willing to accommodate them.

    Congress is being told to reduce their spending, but if they do that the supply of bonds demanded by the casino will be reduced thereby threating the stability of the derivatives mountain. If Congress does not reduce spending in order to accommodate the casino then their debt mountain overwhelms them.

    If it was not for having to pay the bankers their interest this could be a win-win situation. All the entitlements that have been granted could be paid for and the casino could keep growing their derivatives mountain. But, where to find the money to pay the bankers. The people want their entitlements, too many are unemployed or to poor to pay taxes so the tax base cannot grow and if spending is cut the tax base will contract even more.

    Meanwhile over at the casino if the bond supply slows down the derivatives mountain will have to be pared back which will slow the demand for bonds. If that demand slows enough the bond prices will peak and selling will begin. Where is the money to come from to pay the bond holders who want out?

    The party must be keep going, but how do you achieve exponential growth in a finite system.

    Europe may be hitting that wall now.

    We do live in interesting times.

    • Rich November 23, 2011, 8:11 pm

      Speaking of interesting times, the Gold SPX is telling quite a different story from the Nominal Dow:

      Down some -45% in less than two years, it has been in a ST uptrend since August:

      http://stockcharts.com/freecharts/gallery.html?s=%24SPX%3A%24GOLD

      Some tryptophan for thought…

    • Rich November 23, 2011, 8:40 pm

      Also, an oldie but goodie for choice consideration:

      “This study reports on the existence of a curious calendar effect–a relationship between
      stock market performance and the schedule of the U.S. Congress. Almost the entire
      advance in the market since 1897 corresponds to the periods when Congress is in
      recess. This is an impressive result, given that Congress is in recess about half as long
      as in session. Furthermore, average daily returns when Congress is not meeting are
      almost thirteen times greater than when Congress is in session. Throughout the year,
      cumulative returns during recess are eight times that experienced while Congress is in
      session.”

      http://www2.stetson.edu/fsr/abstracts/vol_6_num1_p19.pdf

      Congress is not in session until next year:

      Will this time be different?…

  • mava November 23, 2011, 4:50 am

    The “D” word is mentioned once, and even there it is defined as…. surprise surprise, the lower prices in some market!

    Hello, genius! By that definition, we have had that kind of “deflation” for years, – in technology, – and it was universally perceived as a boom market.

  • HARRY November 23, 2011, 2:11 am

    All the numeric reasoning is correct except for the underlying unit of measurement, which is a moving target. “Both periods [72-81 and 02-11] were remarkably flat (no price appreciation, just dividends).
    Flat? In real terms, after inflation, stocks were down about 70% in 72-81 and maybe 50% in 02-11. We’ve already had that 50% drop you are expecting.

    • Steve November 23, 2011, 3:52 am

      Hey Harry, were the same accounting standards used across the board? No! Figures do not lie, but; liars figure a different figure in 2011. Article great – too long though.