Be Very Afraid of Europe’s ‘Re-Hypothecators’

[The commentary below elicited quite a response, so I’m letting it run for a second day. Wednesday’s commentary will feature two very important trading tips for permabears who have been trying for years without success to short the elusive Mother of All Tops. If you’re interested in learning the “parlor trick” that we used on Friday to get short the QQQs ourselves within a hair of the intraday high, click here. And if you’d like to have these daily commentaries delivered to your e-mail box free of charge, as will as free access for a week to all of Rick’s Picks services and feratures,  click here. RA]

Who’d have believed that the word “hypothecation” would grab the financial world’s shakers and movers by the balls last week, whirl them round-and-round, then dash their cynical pretenses of “saving” Europe against a stone wall?  Click here to read the article on this topic at ZeroHedge if you haven’t done so already. And then send it to everyone you know. We did, with a warning that the collapse of the banking system is no longer merely possible or likely, but unavoidable. The article takes pains to explain why in terms that even the layman can understand. It will undoubtedly have created quite a stir not only among the broad readership of web sites that linked it, but among those charged with the task of further delaying Europe’s financial collapse. The spinmeisters and policymakers have been doing their utmost to obscure the details of the supposed rescue effort, since the better those efforts are understood, the more absurd they become.

And yet, as our colleague Bill Buckler, editor of The Privateer, points out, the clamor to “solve” Europe’s debt problems with trillions of ginned-up printing-press euros or dollars is nearly universal.  One might think no one could be so stupid as to believe that having the central bank of Europe buy the shaky bonds of Italy, Spain and Greece et al. with “money” created out of thin air will restore the financial system to health.  In fact, as Buckler observes, it is difficult to find an editorial voice that does not fervently support this course of action — support it with every mote of magesterial ignorance the op-end pages can bring to the argument. On the eve of Friday’s EU summit, here’s what the Times of India had to say: “There is one solution. If only the European Central Bank (ECB) agrees to print money in unlimited quantities to support the bonds of eurozone states – something Ben Bernanke would do without a second thought in the U.S. – then the euro crisis would end. This would cause inflation, but would guarantee that all sovereign debt would be repaid in full.”  Only in a world gone mad could anyone believe such poppycock. As Buckler notes, “It takes but a single tiny step behind the crumbling façade of modern economics to encounter a mental wasteland.”

Yes, everyone would be repaid in full, as the India Times says — but with money that will have been rendered worthless not by mere inflation, but by the hyper-inflationary sums required to discharge all debts, everywhere.  Indeed, the amounts involved can no longer even be quantified, since, as Peter Schiff has pointed out, a wholesale bailout of sovereign debt would send all other bond markets into a tailspin requiring more bailouts till the cows come home. To assert that the crisis can only end badly is to make a point that everyone but the bankers, politicians and benighted editorialists seem to understand.

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  • Steve December 18, 2011, 9:06 am

    Everyone and his brother are saying the market’s are going to crash. enough said.

  • ROGER, Canadian Libertarian December 18, 2011, 8:29 am

    ALL critics say the SAME thing…NOT ENOUGH REGULATION and even the TRUTH about this fallacy is in their own critiques, yet they just dont SEE that truth: Virtual MONOPOLIES granted to the criminals, in the financial industry, by PRIVILEGES IS the problem NOT lack of REGULATION.

    These VIRTUAL MONOPOLIES are granted via legal PRIVELEGES, which are simply monopolies, such as E-HYPOTHECATION.The moment governments give an industry ,by law, a “right” such as that, a MONOPOLY is created for that particular industry The SOLUTION is to STOP granting Privileges NOT to increase regulations which, in effect simply creates more opportunities ( “privileges”) for the corrupt to find ways to use the additional regulations.

    UNTIL the public and critcs wake up to that fact we will simply just start the problems all over again, AFTER the coming collapse, with all the NEW REGULATIONS, which are really only PRIVILEGES for the CORRUPT!!!

    Don’t believe it?… Then ask yourself, have REGULATIONS been increasing since the Incorporation of the UNITED STATES in 1871 or REDUCING…and dont forget, while thinking about it, the BIG REGULATION…the FEDERAL RESERVE in 1913,which got the MONOPOLY to CONTROL MONEY!

    ..and have things gotten better since then???

  • fallingman December 17, 2011, 10:16 pm

    Wait a minute. Are you saying there’s a problem with the financial system?

    I watched the evening news the other night and they didn’t say a thing about it.

  • F. Beard December 16, 2011, 5:30 am

    World debt is payable:

    1) Forbid the banks from any further credit creation; this would be massively deflationary by itself but continue, please.
    2) Send equal bailout checks to the entire population, including savers, metered to just replace existing credit as it is paid off.

    Since the total money supply (reserves + credit) would not change then neither price deflation nor price inflation would be a serious risk.

    • Buster December 17, 2011, 10:12 am

      So let me get this sraight……

      The plan is simply to end the strugle of the people & solve the financial crisis in a moment by taking power away from the banksters & giving that power in the form of a credit of money to the unwashed masses, thereby ending hundreds of years of tyrany & acumulated power & priveledge of the few at the expense of millions, nay, billions of people??!!

      That’s a great idea! ….& there’s a new bill being passed that’s tailor made for bright guys just like you…..
      http://www.goldstockbull.com/articles/senate-passes-bill-allowing-for-indefinite-detention-of-u-s-citizens-without-trial-or-attorney/

    • Buster December 17, 2011, 10:46 am

      “Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry & commerce….And when you realize that the entire system is very easily controlled, one way or another, by a few powerful men at the top, you will not have to be told how periods of inflation & depression originate.”-James Garfield ( US President who was assassinated weeks after making this statement in 1881)
      In 1891 the Banksters prepared to fleece the American People once again. In a memo sent out by the American Bankers Association to all it’s members, which reads:
      “On September 1st, 1894, we will not renew our loans under any consideration. On Sept 1st we will demand our money. We will foreclose & become mortgagees in possession. We can take two-thirds of the farms west of the Mississippi, & thousands of them east of the Mississippi as well, at our own price… The farmers will become tenants as in England…” (as printed in the Congressional Record of April 29, 1913)

      It’s a long running game, for sure!

  • Kerry Siggard December 14, 2011, 10:50 pm

    If anyone is still here, this is Penson’s statement:

    18. Hypothecation. Within the limitations imposed by applicable laws, rules and regulations, all securities now or hereafter held by PFSI, or carried by PFSI in any account for the account holder (either individually or jointly with others), or deposited to secure same, may from time to time, without any notice, be carried in PFSI’s general loans and may be pledged, repledged, hypothecated or re-hypothecated, separately or in common with other securities for the sum due to PFSI thereon or for a greater sum and without retaining in PFSI’s possession or control for delivery a like amount of similar securities. The IRS requires Broker Dealers to treat dividend payments on loaned securities positions as in-lieu dividends for 1099 tax reporting purposes. Taxation of substitute dividend payments may be greater than ordinary on qualified dividends. It is understood, however, that PFSI agrees to deliver to the account holder upon demand and upon payment of the full amount due thereon, all securities in such accounts, but without obligation to deliver the same certificates or securities deposited by the account holder originally. Any securities in the account holder’s margin or short account may be borrowed by PFSI, or lent to others.

    Is Penson the company and Penson the hypothecator – are they safe?

    • Robert December 15, 2011, 6:51 pm

      IMO from the clause you excerpted above, no, they are not safe.

      The statement you clipped above can be simplified to:

      1) We can (and will) use YOUR shares to create OUR loans to others, and WE will keep the proceeds from the service of those loans.

      But below is the MOST important clause:

      “It is understood, however, that PFSI agrees to deliver to the account holder upon demand and upon payment of the full amount due thereon, all securities in such accounts, but without obligation to deliver the same certificates or securities deposited by the account holder originally.”

      – It is UNDERSTOOD by Penson that Penson has fiduciary duty. It does not state that Penson agrees to ABIDE by this fiduciary duty in ALL circumstances. This is a loophole big enough to drive a truck through; and it is the EXACT clause that Penson would take to a Judge along with their claims of “catastrophic extenuating circumstances” in the marketplace that exceeded Penson’s existing level of understanding in regards to it’s fiduciary duty on behalf of its clients….

      Just copy paste Penson with MF Global.

      A safe agreement would simply state :

      “PFSI agrees to deliver to the account holder upon demand and upon payment of the full amount due thereon, all securities in such accounts, but without obligation to deliver the same certificates or securities deposited by the account holder originally.”

      This statement would leave them NO loopholes- they would have a commitment to deliver shares equivalent to those borrowed, which is about how simple the process really should be, right?

  • Robert December 14, 2011, 4:13 pm

    I’m dismayed by the number of posters here that would rather do whatever it takes to prevent a collapse than to return fairness to human markets…

    Oh, and to be succinct: Economic collapse does NOT mean war is inevitable. War is ALWAYS a distraction the elitists use that is intended to take your mind off the economy. War is nothing more than a profit generating mechanism for sociopaths who have no issue with using human life as investment capital (the ugliest form of capitalism there is)

    In my mind, if an economic collapse is the ultimate price for a return to fairness and commerce driven pricing in all things, then I for one (perhaps the only one) am ready to pay that price.

    Anyone so fearful of economic collapse that they can’t see the fact that the sun always rises, then they live in a world of delusion and might as well just stick to CNBC.

    I for one appreciate Rick Ackerman’s willingness to see things as they are.

    That’s going to be my final point about that.

    • Robert December 14, 2011, 6:06 pm

      Ok I lied…

      THIS is going to be my final point:

      Global debt is unpayable, and yet monetizing said debt is seemingly unthinkable… so we instead focus on the likelihood of war.

      War is nothing more than the process of monetizing death. War is not constructive economically, therefore war does NOT generate economic growth.

      I find it much more morally acceptable to monetize debt than to monetize death.

    • mava December 15, 2011, 10:20 pm

      No, you’re not alone. I too, rather see a collapse than a continuation of injustice.

      My view on war, however, is that it not always is what you say it is. Sometimes a nation doesn’t want to pay up, and the only way to get the payment is to take it.

      For instance, if a nation A loaned nation B tons of money, and then nation B defaults, it is just for the nation A to come and take what they can.

      Of course, this, should never be the chosen way. The proper way of handling this is:
      1) Government can not loan money to anyone – as it doesn’t make any money in the first place, like a child in a family, so it should have no power to loan.
      2) Any loans and or investment made privately to another nation or privates within it, should remain a private risk.

      Of course, we are never going to see this happening, and instead, we are always going to see what you have predicted, – war as a distraction and death monetizing.

  • Rich December 13, 2011, 11:06 pm

    Wonder who is the next firm to fail with equally implausible testimony…?

    • Robert December 14, 2011, 2:36 am

      Jefferies, IMHO…

    • Rich December 14, 2011, 9:54 pm

      JEF P&F targeting -64%…

  • ebear December 13, 2011, 10:13 pm

    “Chinese government disagrees with me? What a surprise, that a bunch of commies disagree with freedom and responsibility for their own actions. Of course the would, they are the dumb commies! If they were any bit brighter, they would not be commies, hello!!”

    Right here is everything you need to know. No historical context, no recognition of the dynamics in play – just a blanket statement of condemnation. The Party Line.

    Communism: it springs from the ground wholly formed as a result of “bad thoughts.” If only people would listen to (our) “good thoughts” we wouldn’t be in this mess.

    And as always, the exhortation to read Murray, as if I hadn’t already waded through the corpus of Libertarian “thought” and found it severely wanting.

    The particular irony is the way the Christian Right hijacks this “theory” which again tells you everything you need to know about it. Form over substance, theory over practice, faith over reason. These things always go together.

    ebear

    • Robert December 13, 2011, 10:26 pm

      “Form over substance, theory over practice, faith over reason. These things always go together.”

      Of COURSE they do…

      Substance, practice, and reason require capital to enact, and to defend.

      Form, Theory, and Faith are all simply articles that spring from the imagination; and are often best left there.

      Humans are lazy. We store our energy until the Darwinian instinct of self preservation stimulates us to use it in the face of perceived struggle…

      So we allow the theorists and the faithful ro run with their ideals until they run everything into a brick wall… at which point Darwin becomes proven a sage yet again….

  • mava December 13, 2011, 6:45 pm

    ebear,

    I think you have made a mistake in your example above.
    “Someone (A) sold melamine to dairy producer (B) and infants B,C,D,E,F and G are dead.” Of course, you meant: “Someone (A) sold melamine to dairy producer (B) and infants C,D,E,F and G are dead.” (just to be sure I understand you).

    This is simple, let the parents of infants CDEFG sue and kill the farmer, IF he promised that his milk is safe. If he did not promise any such thing, and instead operated under “buyer beware” principle, then it’s the parent fault. I can not see how you figure that a melamine seller has any responsibility whatsoever in this case.

    Chinese government disagrees with me? What a surprise, that a bunch of commies disagree with freedom and responsibility for their own actions. Of course the would, they are the dumb commies! If they were any bit brighter, they would not be commies, hello!!

    If you do not agree, then we have nothing to talk about. You’re then a war-mongering fascist who would stop at nothing until everything around him is dead, even though you probably would very much disagree with such characterization. There is just no way I could explain it to you. In your mind, you would believe that you are a caring and just person. And now you are going to think that it’s myself, who is an a-hole. I understand. But, there is no way to explain a concept of responsibility to someone who seeks to escape it.

    Sorry, I was not seeking to offend. But I have to say it as I see it.

    • mario cavolo December 14, 2011, 12:56 pm

      …The Chinese gov’t are the first ones to quickly punish / execute the a-holes who are involved in crimes against the society such as tainting baby formula with melamine…

      Cheers, Mario

    • mava December 15, 2011, 10:13 pm

      Because they are commies. It is not their place to meddle with who put melamine where. Those affected should sue those responsible, and the government role here is simply to make sure that the justice is afforded to everyone, and that those found guilty are executed.

  • Kerry Siggard December 13, 2011, 4:59 pm

    Is there a safe brokerage account to trade any more? Stocks or futures? Where?

    • Robert December 13, 2011, 10:19 pm

      No.

      That’s it. Just NO.

      The brokerages will do whatever they think the regulators will let them get away with (which is damn near anything)

  • Dale December 13, 2011, 1:23 pm

    Mava said: “What do you folks think of Obama’s declaration of official end of capitalism, in Osawatomie?” I think that just as important as the contents of the speech was the place he chose to present it. Osawatomie, Kansas, really?
    http://www.brutallyhonest.org/brutally_honest/2011/12/no-surely-its-a-coincidence.html

    Jill, I don’t know what the answer is either. Body language and voice inflections contribute much to the understanding in a dialog. I have many times been misunderstood when responding to an email or making a post. Those of us with a dry sense of humor do not come across well in this particular venue.

    In my college days, I interacted with only a few of what I would call intelligent individuals. Though thousands of individuals lived and studied in a relatively small piece of real estate, you usually found yourself in a small circle of like-minded friends. Not having the internet then, (we still fed “punch” cards into computers), we had to spend hours or days in the libraries, looking through newspapers and magazines and microfiche, searching for answers to the day’s dilemmas. This forum is an excellent example of how we all now can interact on a daily basis with intelligent, thought provoking (not necessarily like-minded) individuals and often directed further to a website where we can access the information we need to help us formulate opinion, and/or verify, clarify or disavow formerly held opinions.

    My final comment is for Rick. Although I don’t post often, (perhaps 5 or 6 times a year), you know that I have been here since day one. I read your commentary replete with comments top to bottom every day. Tyler Durbin’s Zero Hedge and you’re site are a match made in Heaven. Thanks for all you do on a daily basis to keep this flame burning.

  • ebear December 13, 2011, 10:34 am

    to Mava (posted here because I can’t find a way to reply to a reply)

    “And how many times an argument should be made? It has been made countless times, here, on this board and everywhere else. Try Google? Try “Murray Rothbard on Regulation”?”

    Sorry, I didn’t realize I’d wandered into a nest of Libertarians…lol

    “Or, do you want to enter this yourself and show us why we need regulations? Recall that it is unreasonable for me to go ahead and provide a proof of why we don’t need “Drengrates” and “Ferrunteres” and “Civionsers”, because there is an innumerable quantity of things we don’t need. It is, however a burden of those arguing in favor of a thing to be added, to show why this might be beneficial.”

    Au contraire. It is YOU arguing for the removal of that which already exists. To me, the issue is not whether an existing regulation is necessary (some are, some aren’t) but whether it can be enforced. If it can’t, then do we discard the regulation, or search for a better mechanism of enforcement?

    “But, I can help you with seeing that showing logically the need for regulation is a Siziphus’ Work. Because regulation assumes that the two freely contracting parties do not have their best interest in mind, which is patently wrong, because a third party can not possibly show that it knows what is best interest of the other two parties!”

    This is absurd on the face of it. Party A contracts with Party B to mutual satisfaction AND (often, if not intentionally) to the detriment of parties B, C and D. Happens all the time. For example:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal

    To summarize:
    Someone (A) sold melamine to dairy producer (B) and infants B,C,D,E,F and G are dead. Sure, it’s to the dairy producer’s benefit not to kill his customers, so why regulate him, enlightened capitalist that he is? As for A, well, he never went down the (non-existent) list of people he wasn’t supposed to sell melamine to, so his conscience is clear, right? We’ll just assume A and B contracted to mutual satisfaction and leave it at that.

    “People make unassuming mental jump from the necessity of the law, which protects against UNVOLUNTARY action and results thereof, to supposed necessity of Regulation, which is unnecessary for it either deals with something that is already or ought to be covered by lay because it is unvoluntary action, or it deals with something that is a voluntary action and therefore does not have a standing.”

    Laws are rules for governing conduct. Regulation derives from them as a matter of practical necessity because laws aren’t always obeyed. You sell me tainted meat and the law comes along after I’m dead and prosecutes you. How does that help me? There are three separate issues here. The law, regulation, and enforcement. I just closed a brokerage account because I no longer trust the regulators to enforce the rules. Does that mean there should be no regulation, or does it point to a need for better oversight? The answer to that question is another question: do you want ME to participate in the market or not? Some 30 years ago the regulations separating commercial banking from savings & loans were abandoned and look what happened. More recently Glass-Steagall was repealed. We all know what happened next.

    Here’s a regulation you’re probably familiar with:

    To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures

    Clearly some regulations are unnecessary or outdated, but efficiency is a separate issue from need. As long as people can’t be trusted, they will be regulated. The central issue is who gets to do that, and in a democracy I suppose that means us, doesn’t it?

    Anyway, sorry to crash the Party. As you were.

    ebear

    • Mark Uzick December 13, 2011, 1:33 pm

      Do not trust the state to regulate commerce or anything else for that matter; as it’s a inherently corrupt, aggressive monopoly, it fails miserably and on purpose at its supposed responsibility. It protects wealthy and powerful special interests against the victims of their misdeeds, while also protecting them from competition in the insincere name of safety.

      At the same time it keeps a complacent and gullible public from taking the steps to establish voluntary regulations to govern the safety and ethics of business practices on a legitimate, competitive basis, where the interests of the public, the honest businessman and the regulators are aligned.

      Note how the examples that you wish to protect us from took place under the watchful eye of the state.

      You’d probably say that just means that the state wasn’t powerful enough to be effective; but I say,
      “No matter the virtue and sincerity of your intentions, in the long run, no good can result from implementing them by means of aggression”.

    • Robert December 13, 2011, 10:17 pm

      “You’d probably say that just means that the state wasn’t powerful enough to be effective; but I say,
      “No matter the virtue and sincerity of your intentions, in the long run, no good can result from implementing them by means of aggression”.

      – And yet even more awesomeness springs forth….

  • james December 13, 2011, 7:57 am

    this is generally an informative site with a lot of thoughtful and well reasoned opinions. so come on people, be nice to each other. be courteous. you can listen and respond without all the vitriol. there is a great deal of fear in the world ( justifiable, to be sure) and those of us who are at least aware of the problems would profit by at least trying to pull together rather than shredding each other with ad hominem attacks for differing opinions. trust gold, silver, brass and lead – the currencies of the new millennium.

    • Benjamin December 13, 2011, 9:05 am

      “Trust gold, silver, brass and lead – the currencies of the new millennium.”

      Actually, James, you might wanna add nickel to your list…

      http://www.coinflation.com/

      I keep a store of ’em. But I’ve never been able to figure why nickel remains even. It just does! Too, there is no premium, at least here in the states. One paper FRN will exchange for exactly 20 nickels. Now, they say silver is “poor man’s gold. I guess one could say nickel is poor man’s silver?

  • Seawolf December 13, 2011, 4:48 am

    Here is Charles Hugh Smith’s solution to the EU debt problem. It is a post from dec 4.

    http://charleshughsmith.blogspot.com/2011/12/its-your-choice-europe-rebel-against.html

  • Jill December 13, 2011, 3:23 am

    Only on the Internet can conflicts like these happen with such regularity. In person, where one is not anonymous, people are, on average, far less insulting.

    In person, folks have the benefit of eye contact, body language, facial expression, and voice tone., to help them to communicate. Without these, many people get a bit crazy, greatly misunderstand one another, and easily run off into their own anger against a straw man or straw woman, who is quite different from the other party who they are trying to converse or argue with.

    Add to this a conversation that is about abstract issues and ideologies that are hard to be perfectly clear and specific about– and there’s some more gasoline thrown on the fire.

    That is what I see. I wonder what the solution is.

    • Seawolf December 13, 2011, 3:33 am

      How about this. Place brain in gear before activating fingers?

    • Benjamin December 13, 2011, 6:23 am

      Jill, the solution is not all that hard to conceive. Real economic activity,that is, production and trade, needs to resume. Hindering that resumption, though, is the 100% untenable, debt-based financial system.

      Now, earlier I mentioned that paper systems (or gold, silver, etc) are not inherently unworkable. And that’s because they aren’t…

      Supposing you could take some Thing and buy a U.S. Treasury. What you’d have in place of a (presumably) useful thing is an obligation, specifically an obligation by government to return that thing at a specific date. But before that date, you come to conclude that you really needed that thing after all. Okay, so you have to make the obligation liquid. To do that, you trade it for something more liquid. This could be (but doesn’t necessarily have to be) a bank that issued you paper money. You use that to buy something to replace the Thing that the Treasury owes you. The bond buyer, on the other hand, has to wait to take delivery.

      In both theory and practice, that can work. The problem with today’s system is that the Thing is nothing. It’s just an accounting entry, which can be leveraged, or loaned over and over again. Regulation will never be able to change that flaw. What results is uncertainty. Increasingly, no one can know who owns what, who can own what, who owes what, who has/hasn’t the future ability to repay, invest, trade, etc.

      Solution? Government has to stop issuing blank, non-things. Banks have to stop using these highly leverage-able non-things as “wealth”. And while fraud can always take place in a hard-money system, fraud is MUCH easier to detect and summarily regulate against. And because it is, the dishonest are more easily purged from the system, thus preventing a build-up of uncertainty in the market.

      Now, you’re not the only one who asks the question as to what the solution is. But the solution has been said, many times and many ways, in this forum and elsewhere. So my questions to those asking the question that doesn’t need to be asked…

      Why do you keep asking it? And why do you insist that no one has a solution, when there clearly is one?

    • Robert December 13, 2011, 10:12 pm

      Benjamin that was AWESOME.

      People are not enraged that there is no solution….

      People are enraged that there is no solution that FAVORS them….

      Everyone wants to come out ahead, without expending any effort.

      Bullocks to that.

    • Benjamin December 13, 2011, 10:52 pm

      Thanks, Robert. And you answered the question exactly how I was going to. That is _precisely_ why!

      However, in defense of the “average” person, I will say this… Just as it is destiny for this system to fail, it’s also a destiny that those who didn’t start and fan the fire to suffer loss. The longer it goes on, the more times most everyone, if not everyone, will be put through the wringer. And in that regard, Rick said it… Some of us are happy to know that the system will fail so that we can _finally_ get back to reality!

  • Bruce December 13, 2011, 1:55 am

    I am neither “angry” nor do I want any “pound of flesh” I have no idea why you would say such nonsense

    ————–I guess it was your tone. ————–

    You live in delusion if you think printing is a solution; no it may buy time but sooner or later the piper is gonna have to be paid and the later the worst it will be.

    ————–What could be worse than a full scale world wide depression complete with world war.—————-

    As to your unwavering belief that gold back currency is any better than the trash we now have all I can say is do some more research.

    ————–You earlier raised the issue of the period from 1913 to 1933 as an example of a failure of the gold standard. In fact, we were not on a gold standard during this time. The gold was in the hands of private banks, and not the government, so it would have been impossible for said gold to have been a factor in controlling the money supply. ————–

    As to your guessing “I suspect that you believe that a little bit of austerity will solve the problem.” all I can say is lol- you must not be a regular here are you?

    ————–No I am not a regular. There is too much information to be processed in this insane world to spend too much time at any one site. However, I have posted before. I do not see how it is relevant to the discussion. ————–

    No I believe in the free markets which means enough of the printing presses, let the trash burn, let the markets readjust, and let the pieces fall where they may. If that means depression then it must be done.

    ————– You said “I am neither “angry” nor do I want any “pound of flesh”, and yet you demand a depression and you demand “that the trash should burn”. Pardon me if I sensed anger, but it is hard not to. ————–

    As to your “advice” to “You might want to Google “re-hypothecation” to get a handle on how fragile the world economy really is.” what do you think I did today? Come on this forum and start babbling on here like you have without so much as reading Ricks piece?

    ————– I never said I did not read Rick’s piece. The babble comment is a personal attack. Once it gets personal, it becomes difficult for anyone to profit from the discussion.————–

    Really? Like I said you must be new here.

    ————– I am almost new here ————–

    As to your “advice” “Do not be surprised if your bank account disappears overnight.” What makes you think I have a bank account??????

    ————– I don’t. It was a generic statement that applies to any reader. I do not know if you have a bank account, keep your money under a mattress or are a gold bug. Such things are personal and as I said previously, if we get personal then we are wasting our time. ————–

    You live in delusion if you think printing is a solution; no it may buy time but sooner or later the piper is gonna have to be paid and the later the worst it will be.

    ————–You do realize that in the 1970’s there was huge inflation and many people saw their mortgages and debts inflated away. It was great for the debtors and bad for the creditors. ————–

    As to your unwavering belief that gold back currency is any better than the trash we now have all I can say is do some more research.

    ————–If gold backed currency is no good, and fiat currency is no good, then you paint a truly bleak future ————–

    Now, because I am a gentleman, I will give you the last word.

  • mava December 13, 2011, 1:34 am

    What do you folks think of Obama’s declaration of official end of capitalism, in Osawatomie? Coupled with FEMA concentration camps finally coming to life, and a supporting law framework HR 1867? What boggles my mind, however, is this out of place piece, – 1867 will also remove prohibition on sodomizing of animals by our troops…. hmmm. What am I missing here? I can’t connect that last dot. Are they trying to turn the burner of jihad way up, so we can have someone to hate, collectively, which would make our camp vacation much more bearable?

  • mava December 13, 2011, 1:26 am

    How about this: US Congress passes the law that it can default once in 200 years, officially. Then defaults. After that, it continues to offer the same counterfeit paper in exchange for loans. Who would not lend to them if another default is again “virtually impossible” for another 200 years? This works beautifully with bankruptcies, why wouldn’t it work on a bigger scale? Scam them to the max!

  • Bruce December 12, 2011, 11:00 pm

    Mava,
    Your desire to crash the entire system right now almost guarantees a world war. When all a country has left is military might, then that might will be used. The last thing I want is a world war!
    Carol,
    You seem angry and apparently you want your “pound of flesh”. The problem is that when the house is on fire, you do not spend your time discussing the appropriate punishment for the arsonist. You put out the fire. You seem very tuned into the consequences of inflation, while at the same time seem woefully ignorant of the devastating consequences of world wide depression. The whole concept of a gold backed system is to prevent the inflating money printing that got us into this mess. I suspect that you believe that a little bit of austerity will solve the problem. You might want to Google “re-hypothecation” to get a handle on how fragile the world economy really is. If the Europeans don’t print, you will find out quickly how bad things can get and how quickly it happens. Do not be surprised if your bank account disappears overnight.

    • Carol December 12, 2011, 11:29 pm

      Bruce –

      I am neither “angry” nor do I want any “pound of flesh” I have no idea why you would say such nonsense. That being said I am not desirous of the banksters burying society with their printing presses neither. I just disagree with your stated “solution” to the mess that we are in that somehow “printing” can fix anything – it can not. You live in delusion if you think printing is a solution; no it may buy time but sooner or later the piper is gonna have to be paid and the later the worst it will be.

      As to your unwavering belief that gold back currency is any better than the trash we now have all I can say is do some more research.

      As to your guessing “I suspect that you believe that a little bit of austerity will solve the problem.” all I can say is lol- you must not be a regular here are you? No I believe in the free markets which means enough of the printing presses, let the trash burn, let the markets readjust, and let the pieces fall where they may. If that means depression then it must be done. There is no printing presses anywhere that is going to save us or fix these problems.

      As to your “advice” to “You might want to Google “re-hypothecation” to get a handle on how fragile the world economy really is.” what do you think I did today? Come on this forum and start babbling on here like you have without so much as reading Ricks piece? Really? Like I said you must be new here.

      As to your “advice” “Do not be surprised if your bank account disappears overnight.” What makes you think I have a bank account??????

    • mava December 13, 2011, 3:10 am

      There will be a war over this, sooner or later, agree?

      If the system goes away now, it is going to be smaller war than if the system holds another 30 years, agree?

      So, what I want, is for TPTB to print, print like there is no tomorrow. Bailout everyone and anyone, free everything! Then, the system will crash.

      I want for people to get a real strong allergy for any fiat system, just like our founding fathers had (Again, Hamilton was a traitor, not a FF). If there has to be a war to dissolve the issues that the fiat money system had accumulated, then I’d rather have it sooner than later (I know that most people with kids want to kick the can). I don’t believe that having marginal spending cuts and therefore allowing the system to go on for a while is a wise solution. This will prolong the accumulation of injustice, and will end in much, much larger conflict.

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 13, 2011, 3:11 am

      Good thinking Carol. At least I know there will be one other person who will never have to make a run on a bank in a desperate moment. I would have guessed you don’t participate in the fiction of accounts. You might even be one of the few who get through the coming trial and still be solvent while all around you others wail and cry and gnash their teeth in despair. Whew!

    • mava December 13, 2011, 3:14 am

      In other words, I believe that when I have a toothache, I know it is going to end in a root canal or extraction.

      I’d rather keep biting on that tooth, to make myself go see dentist sooner, rather than later. I believe that sooner may mean root canal or extraction, while later might mean surgical extraction with abscess or… death.

    • mava December 13, 2011, 3:22 am

      She’s right not to have an account.

      My parents never had any accounts and never had any debts. They are doing just fine, even if they are not fancy. Honestly, I do have an account in the bank, but only to conveniently pay for current expenses. A month worth. I don’t care if the bank closes, – it is not an important sum.

      It takes an effort to get yourself off these sinful way, such as having an account. Carol, would you agree? Bad habits die hard. I suffered a week or two after cutting off my TV service. But, now, I am glad I did it.

      I think she’s glad (Carol) that she cut the ties to the bank. Btw, wether I agree or not with her beliefs, that makes her human and makes me respect her that much more than someone who is an advertisement slave.

  • Bruce December 12, 2011, 9:48 pm

    Carol,
    Re your comment (How is “printing” the solution to anything in a debt based currency scam system??)———————Perhaps you missed the sentence in my reply ————-(Inflate away the debt, crash the currency, then start fresh with a new gold backed currency.) Now, perhaps you can tell me how your solution of a world wide depression on an unprecedented scale possibly followed by a world war is a better solution?

    • Carol December 12, 2011, 10:05 pm

      You can’t inflate away debt with more debt – period!!! The debts that then need to be “inflated away” are just bigger!!!

      How is “inflating away” the currency a good option? Given that most people would starve to death because they could not afford to buy a loaf of bread, unless and until their wages kept up with inflation and that has not happened for 30 years. Why would it start now? I see no difference in “inflating away” the debts (as if that could be done) and deflation/depression. Both would cause massive crisis, starvation, unemployment, war. Both would “crash the currency”. Both would cause a depression. Neither is a “good” option.

      Also a gold backed currency would be just as bad as the current system IF it is a DEBT based scam like what we had from 1913-1933. It would NOT fix any of our problems.

    • mava December 12, 2011, 10:10 pm

      Funny you should mention that, Bruce.

      This has been a PITA for me for a while that all the good folks who seem to be supporting freedom, are pushing as hard as they can for the third world war!

      They all are like sheep are concentrating their efforts on fixing what’s wrong with fascism, not understanding that one can not fix fascism, one must allow or even hasten it’s collapse!

      They just can’t get enough of doing something to help the system to survive another day, – it doesn’t matter to them that this day too, will add to the balance that will have to be reconciled through the war that follows. They bring up various solutions on how to solve the leverage, how to unwind the derivatives, instead of doing what Alan Greenspan did, – drive the fascists to the edge, make them fail tomorrow, not 30 years from now.

      Let the immoral system fail! Help it to fail! Stop extending it days. There has to be a conflict at the end, because we wouldn’t just want to give back everything that was stolen, so let it be, don’t make it even bigger by allowing the system to steal for another 30 years!

    • mava December 12, 2011, 10:19 pm

      Carol,

      By “most people would starve to death because they could not afford to buy a loaf of bread” do you mean people that are too stupid to be alive?

      What stopped them from converting all the dollars they get to gold for years?

      And if it is their stupidity then should then not answer for the sinful choices they have made? Would that be not right? Tell me, who do you want to see suffering as a punishment for what they have done? Only the bankers? Would bankers ever matter for one second if millions of stupid did not accept their offerings?

      I am sorry. Everyone must make a choice, and answer for it. If one doesn’t know, then one should NOT rely on anyone. But if he had decided that this or that king is certain to win, and pledged his allegiance, then let his own pledge to become his punishment.

    • Carol December 12, 2011, 10:31 pm

      Mava,

      if things get as bad as you seem to be wishing for no amount of gold will buy you a loaf of bread. Further stupidity is everywhere. If your neighbor was too stupid to “buy gold” (as if that will save him) then what keeps him from coming over to your house (who prepared I guess) and taking your bread, or gold, or guns, or whatever. We will never be “safe” if our stupid and unprepared brothers are not.

    • mava December 13, 2011, 1:22 am

      I don’t have that many “brothers”. I consider my real brothers to be the only brothers. I consider like minded people to be my friends. Everyone else to me is just folk betting on a different horse. They might turn out to be right.

      When they come for what I have they will find nothing. Cause, (what was the movie where this line was used?) “I’ve thought about that too, ha-ha!”

      But, essentially, with your point of view, doesn’t it make you a hostage socialist? (Presuming to be responsible for the masses, regardless how stupid they may be, because if not well cared for, they will come for what you have)? My plan is not to be there for them, but if caught anyway, then I have no problem with violently defending my life and property.

    • Carol December 13, 2011, 1:52 am

      Mava “But, essentially, with your point of view, doesn’t it make you a hostage socialist? ”

      So when you can’t win a debate you lower yourself to name calling? Where did I ever say that I felt the need to take responsibility for anyone? Did I say you needed to make anyone safe? Did I ever say that I thought the stupid people should be helped by you, me, or anyone else? No, no and no.

      I am not a socialist and am in fact the truest libertarian you will ever find. My statement was only that of truth. Those that think they can escape the calamity that is about to visit the world because they bought gold – good luck with that!

    • mava December 13, 2011, 7:10 pm

      Carol, why so sensitive? I meant no offense. How else am I supposed to discuss a topic with you? I read what you said, and I had a thought that such views paint you in such and such position. I asked what you think about that. How is it a name calling or an offense? If you point me at one of my posts and ask me if I think a view like that means I am a stupid idiot, I will think about that from a third person point of view. May-be I’d even agree…

      What’s up with you, been wronged by the people many times or something? It wasn’t me. And by now, you’d think you would pretty much know mava doesn’t do that.

      Anyway….

      You said: “if things get as bad as you seem to be wishing for no amount of gold will buy you a loaf of bread. Further stupidity is everywhere. If your neighbor was too stupid to “buy gold” (as if that will save him) then what keeps him from coming over to your house (who prepared I guess) and taking your bread, or gold, or guns, or whatever. We will never be “safe” if our stupid and unprepared brothers are not.”

      This is the post that prompted my question. Because it follows then you’d rather arrest the collapse, as a compromise with stipid people. Why not just shoot them in the head? That is what I would do. Because coming over the fence to take what is mine perfectly qualifies them as targets, all because they now have proven that they’d rather kill me than go away and die quietly. Which starts the armed conflict then.

      That is why I asked you if you think it makes you a hostage socialist. Because you would care for them, but according to your statement, not out of love (as socialists claim), but out of fear that if you do not pretend to be “a socialist” while actually being their hostage, then they will take what is yours.

      And why is this constant what are you going to use your gold for question? Gold is portable wealth. While you will be a sitting duck, a food-point if you have farmland, or garden or stocked supplies, you will have a plenty of chance if you have gold instead, because you then can move, and use your weapons.

      As for usability of gold during the collapse, I never said humanity will end. Actually, I think humanity on average is going to blossom. This is because many idiots who are currently “consuming” and dependent of the system that delivers them their necessities based on a scam, will go away.

      And during such a collapse, the money will not go away. Gold is the only money. It still be money, even when you burn FRNs for fuel. When Rome collapsed, there was no protected money standard available, so the division of labor died, and we call those years now “the Dark Ages”. You won’t read this in a history book. But, even then, gold was widely used as money. It was never rejected. The standard died, the money didn’t. So, I do not subscribe to “the world is ending” crowd, and therefore do not understand what makes you think gold is not going to be money if SHTF.

    • Robert December 13, 2011, 9:47 pm

      Carol wrote:

      “if things get as bad as you seem to be wishing for no amount of gold will buy you a loaf of bread. ”

      Sorry Carol- I usually agree with you; but this statement suggests to me that you are disconnected from the basic fact that we are a social species. I do not fault you this point- many Randian Libertarian type self reliant souls fall into this logic trap.

      Just because you choose to own responsibility for charting your own destiny, does not mean you can effectively MANIFEST your own destiny. You must have support from other people along the way.

      You are one member of a global population of a single species.

      The bushmen of the Kalihari are the only remaining human tribe that do not use (and never have used) any form of money or credit….

      They are also the only remaining human tribe that do not willfully start wars with other tribes.

      In a society absent of money, people with excess bread willfully share it… they do not hoard it until it molds.

      The language of your statement is 100% correct: Offer a Bushman’s wife a Krugerrand in exchange for her bread and she will refuse. She has no use for your coin.

      But, the essence of your statement is 100% wrong: Ask the Bushman’s wife if she has enough bread to share, and you will get to eat, unless her kids are hungry that day.

      Get it?

      The concept of some global Mad Max “Dog eat dog” world that would ensue when/if money died is erroneous- for such a world would be easily conquered by murderous indifferent psychopaths, and they would kill relentlessly until there was only one of them left… and when that one finally died humanity would have finally successfully proven that the laws of nature were written so that evil could triumph over good.

      I’m like a broken record, but I’ll repeat it again: No species has EVER willfully and conscientiously extincted itself.

    • mario cavolo December 14, 2011, 12:47 pm

      and a “collapse” is somehow going to be less painful and tragic?….

      Why will there be a world wide depression…? Yes West is slowing down. Yes East and Latin is rising. Overall more of everything is being consumed, meaning, purchased, by someone, last time I checked. That’s called a global economy, right? The buying and selling of goods and services?…

      This board needs a clarification: what exactly IS the definition and steps of this needed “collapse”? Give it to me play by play…you CAN’T. Ramos’ Age of the Unthinkable, Per Bak’s sandpiles…we CAN”T know what reactions are going to come each step of the way. Relax, buy the dips…

  • ricecake December 12, 2011, 9:17 pm

    Two extreme forces in fighting, you better bet on somewhere between – the midway. They call it – “comprise” and “democracy.” But you won’t make a lot of money by doing it. One gets filthy rich or penniless because one gamble on one way or the other all the way in.

    It’s much better and cheaper to the kick the can down the road as there is still a road. Believe there are more than just one road! Assuming the can is not the explosive that is. But it is the best if the can explodes then we will all save the trouble to kick it and worry about it. The road is wide open to us all and everyone is happy.

  • Bruce December 12, 2011, 8:44 pm

    Print or die! That is the choice. What prisoner on death row doesn’t want a reprieve? Inflate away the debt, crash the currency, then start fresh with a new gold backed currency. The alternative is a world wide depression right now on a scale the world has never seen before, sure to be followed by a world wide nuclear confrontation. This seems to be what you want Rick, and apparently you want it right now! Five years ago we could have deleveraged, but we have definitely past the rubicon on a world wide basis now. I suspect the re-hypothecation scandal will be the coup de grace if Europe doesn’t start printing right now. Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it.

    • Carol December 12, 2011, 9:33 pm

      I am so tired of this “print or die” mentality. Do you not know that EVERY dollar that comes into existence is done so as a loan? Even the dollars that come off the supposed printing press are issued as debt. SO therefore, what those saying that printing will “solve” the debt problem believe that taking on MORE debt will somehow fix too much debt. It just buys them another day or so until the day arrives that even the interest cannot be paid then all hell breaks loose (ignoring the derivatives monster).

      How is “printing” the solution to anything in a debt based currency scam system??

    • Rick Ackerman December 12, 2011, 11:31 pm

      The reason why some of us seem so so eager for the collapse to occur is that it is the only way to purge the financial system of the lies that alone have kept the house of cards from tumbling. Only honest money can bring about an honest and productive economy.

      From a personal standpoint, I have the same fears as everyone else about what the economic landscape will look like once the dust has settled. With a wife and two teenage sons, I can only hope that I am resourceful enough to get us through the extremely hard times that lie ahead.

    • Buster December 12, 2011, 11:36 pm

      Yes Carol. Exacly the point that everyone needs to understand, without doubt. I always try to use the bucket filling game analogy which I’ve previously talked about for explaining the simplicity of the crucial (deliberate) flaw in the financial system. Every cup of water that goes into the bucket has a coresponding hole punched in the bucket to represent the interest. No amount of water can keep the bucket filled as more interest is deducted from the principle loan, represented as the outflow in each new hole added.

      The only real way to fix the economy is to stop the printing of money as debt & issue real currency (like JFK tried to do just before he was killed). The only way that’s ever going to happen is if the controlling powers that benefit from this system of wealth transfer are tackled.

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 13, 2011, 4:09 pm

      Well that is a fairly irresponsible position to take Rick. Are you really now advocating for a collapse? Surely you did not write that comment twice and not expect a response?

      I can understand if what you and others want is price stability. That is laudable. A return to a gold standard is pure folly though and will not happen. I find it hard to imagine any situation that would send us into a depression faster. There is nothing “sound” about so-called sound money except that it behaves as a limitation and reducer on commerce and trade.

      Hell, the middle class itself exists by virtue of fiat ideals. Prior to that, metal backed currencies tended to aggregate in the hands of a few, impoverishing the many. Are you suggesting perhaps that little piles of metal held in storage by one to enable the transactions of others is really where we want to go to get things moving again? Ridiculous.

      Presumably you too enjoy the benefits of leverage. Last I checked your business and investments pretty much revolved around puts and calls. I am curious to know how you think you might still function in that regard with honest money. My guess is you would have to milk cows for a living and do a little heavy lifting for a change.

      No more blithering on-line to a group of like-minded deluded fans who really have no idea what they wish for. The callouses would prevent working on a keyboard and you would surely be too tired to play mind games on this topic anymore.

      Like a lot of the “sound money” crowd you seem to notice only that the pile of money you accumulated is losing worth over time but fail to appreciate that is was acquired under a system that is built around massive leverage and all but guarantees loss in buying power if you just wait long enough.

      That is the deal, man. That is what got us rich and enabled us to invest anywhere in the world our small hearts desired while buying up real assets with fictional paper. Lets not be deluded about how well this has worked for everyone.

      What part of fraction reserve banking is everyone in the gold camp not getting? The whole damn thing is a leverage play. That is how we got our homes, our vehicles, our investment assets and the cottage on the lake too. Remember?

      As they say, the sword cuts both ways. You have surely been enjoying the benefits of the system up until now yet wish to change the rules once your own pile of loot reaches a certain size. And now you consider collapse as a good outcome and seem to even endorse it?

      Good grief. Seems pretty selfish from where I stand.

    • Robert December 15, 2011, 11:25 pm
  • dan December 12, 2011, 8:30 pm

    Seems to me most here are thinking ‘inside the box’ to solutions for the worlds economic problems….TPTB have polluted all systems as to render them ALL useless and as such there are no solutions that can be debated…the endgame is just that…until TPTB tell us what they want…and IMHO they want it ALL…. total control of every thing and every one…

  • Bob in Carlsbad December 12, 2011, 7:52 pm

    Carol,
    My brokerage (Fidelity) does rehypothecate funds in margined brokerage accounts. I plan to remove margin and demand direct ownership of stocks. If I have any problems I’ll close the account and ask for stock certificates.
    Does anybody know about IRA & 401K accounts – can those be rehypothecated?

    • Rick Ackerman December 12, 2011, 11:24 pm

      401k plans require that stock certificates be held in your account, and never in street name. IRAs are much looser.

  • Carol December 12, 2011, 7:27 pm

    I would like to know how many here, after reading the above Zerohedge piece, have opted to close their brokerage accounts? And if not, why not?

  • BDTR December 12, 2011, 7:07 pm

    Played out, you say, Mario?

    (No “ghost cities” to be found in China either? …Hmm, indeed, …but, then, maybe the preponderance of satellite images don’t Google in China anymore?)

    And, …perhaps the past few years to present have been merely a continuing phantasmagoria of institutional failures provoking tens of imaginary trillions in emergency bailouts, credit facility windows, mark-to-non-existent-market Fed ‘asset’ purchases, and serial Harry Potter accounting sorcery to enhance a fantastical financial system serving sustainable economy to a greater good through Ponzie principled OTC derivatives markets of a quadrillion or so notional dollars @ low single digit margin? Hmm?

    But, in an age where a deepening Euro bond ‘haircut’ can ethically sub for default, and a Gold[man] plated Treasury Secretary contender/ostensible market regulation advocate can still find the elusive rabbit hole direct to the mad hatter congressional interrogatory tea party asking, for effect only, the always unanswerable questions of magically missing investor millions, …anything at all is possible. Even the dominant and enduring prospects of central planning extraordinare, Capitalist China, …with billions…of indigent, under-employed, inflation agrieved people.

    Btw, those Fortunate 1000 are and have been keeping their trillions pretty close to their chests. Let’s hope that they’re worth more in five years than the ‘growth’ investments that they’re avoiding with a vengeance, and the paper they’d be printed on,… if they existed.

  • Cam Fitzgerald December 12, 2011, 6:45 pm

    Just as a side note, should the financial system unwind and still survive it seems it might be prudent to be holding some good quality corporate debt. You know, something that is actually backed by real assets like resources, land production and viable income producing enterprises. And unlike government bonds that are supported by little more than faith and the power of taxation, corporates ensure a payout should the company for some reason fail. I am still convinced that the only plausible outcome for the extreme discord and imbalance in the financial sector and on the books of government is a blizzard of inflation. Fiscal responsibilities got left at the door a long time ago. Nobody is even working at controlling deficits anymore, let alone tackling debts. It is almost certain that only a monetary approach to wiping away the past burdens is now capable of resolving the dilemma we all face. Increased taxation is out (ask any taxpayer), and major program cuts are not on the table (imagine no pensions, no military and no hospitals). So we cannot cut the debt nor increase revenues without accepting equal amounts of serious pain. The public won’t have it. Catch 22. Obviously the only palatable solution for governments will be to take it out of our hides with more debt monetization (inflation) and that simply means a drop in living standards is inevitable. We know its coming….might just as well prepare.

    • Rick Ackerman December 12, 2011, 11:22 pm

      That’s the same point of view that I quoted from the Times of India. In reality, attempting monetization on a scale that would discharge ALL debts is tantamount to hyperinflating money to the point of worthlessness. Or do you perhaps believe that once this process gets underway, a politically controlled, semi-hyperinflation can occur?

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 13, 2011, 2:58 am

      Well maybe I am buying the Poppycock and the world is mad after all. I was hardly even aware of repeating what you wrote as the ZH article was still percolating in my head.

      That aside, do you have a solution? Does anyone? We have hashed it out endlessly here on this site and determined the debt is unrepayable. It is simply too huge. Since tax hikes are a non-starter, major program cuts impossible and little stomach remains for expanded spending by government there seems no options left.

      We cannot expand revenues nor cut costs without going straight back into recession. We cannot sit by and do nothing either. Surely a system wide crash and reset is far to dangerous to even contemplate……

      So what are we left with? Inflate or perish. Are there other options? I can only imagine that efforts will be undertaken to keep a persistent level of inflation below the double-digits playing out for many years to come. This is in fact what I see happening already and the manner in which inflation is being counted suggests to me that is our real fate. That means living standard will suffer for years to come. No way around it.

      On the issue of housing, while I agree we have not yet hit bottom and fully delevered, we are surely nearer the bottom than the top already. That tells me that prices should rise eventually after sitting flat for an extended period of time. But that is an assumption I make based on the past and it will not hold true if recession (or worse) arises again.

      Nobody has a crystal ball Rick. Would we rather not see a controlled landing than an epic blowout though? I hate all the difficult choices ahead. They are all going to hurt no matter what happens. Sixty plus years of generally rising economic growth is gone and it is not coming back anytime soon. We will pay the piper one way or another for our decisions of the past.

      Lets all hope we can afford the price.

    • Robert December 13, 2011, 9:00 pm

      As I read each new post from Cam, I can feel (and witness) the awakening of his more acute senses…

      Cam, the only reason the Central Banks still exist is because they have the Government officials convinced that they can indeed engineer the “soft landing” you allude to, and they can, just so long as they keep the money supply growing.

  • Cam Fitzgerald December 12, 2011, 6:07 pm

    Thanks rick. I followed up on the story. Seems I am out of touch on the whole “Who is Tyler Durden” mystery. I will admit it was fascinating reading. I was unaware they were so directly connected.

    I think what is going on here is that I may be having a simple case of knee-jerk reactions to stories on sites like Zero Hedge because they are so alarming. If I follow the logic of the many worries through to their natural conclusions then we are pretty much doomed.

    I do not mean just the financial system either.

    The idea that a mountain of worthless credit might actually collapse brings up all kinds of scenarios which include the failure of the supply chain itself and all the ideas that accompany globalization. I am talking about all the systems we rely upon daily to bring us our fuel, our meals and our many daily needs.

    Suddenly, just-in-time delivery looks like a flawed concept.

    I mean to say, it is not unreasonable to wonder if social collapse might follow on the heels of financial collapse and that is more than I can cope with comfortably. How the hell can a guy insure against that in the long run?

    But are Canadian Banks really at risk as the article suggests or should we be taking these worries with the proverbial grain of salt. We might ask our friend Mark Carney, head of the bank of Canada and now appointed to the position to lead the global banking system out to the promised land. I am guessing he has a few insights into the risks.

    I would worry less if he was not sounding the alarms as urgently as even Zero hedge lately. For a banker, he is starting to sound an awful lot like some of the blogger’s we read daily. That is to say, he sounds very worried and if he is worried we had all better start paying attention.

    In all honesty, I want the story you wrote about today to not be true. Unfortunately, I think they have got it right and so this brings up all kinds of existential questions. Like “what is debt if nobody pays the bills” or “what is really money when society fails”?

    Always ready to put the blinders on when the world is getting freaky though, I still manage to get through the day without letting the idea of a true credit collapse get me down. But as much as I try to ignore the problems in the worlds banking sector and no matter how much I wish the derivatives bombs would disappear there really is no antidote for the truth.

    Crosses and garlic are little help against this demon.

    Holy Moses….what if the edifice does topple? More to the point….it looks like it might. Truth is, I am not really ready for that. Nobody is. I even doubt that the great “reset” some think is possible may even see the light of day as we go directly from a typical functioning society into outright anarchy.

    Who will the vigilantes and thugs come for then? You just know someone is going to get blamed and it will all get ugly fast. Too late to run and hide then. So lets just hope that this mess gets sorted out before the edifice comes down and if that means inflating the hell out of the system so everyone gets paid, then so be it.

    Now if those pesky Europeans would just get on board and stop hogging all the bad news for themselves we might start getting somewhere. They know they need to print for crying out loud. Just get on with it. Until then I am pretty sure I will be safe under the covers….right?

    Worked well when we were kids. Now where is my garlic?

    • Robert December 12, 2011, 7:24 pm

      Cam-

      All I could read from this post was hope…

      Hope is good.

      Hope, misplaced, can be catastrophic.

      Please go back and read your own post again, and pay CAREFUL attention to exactly with whom you are placing your hope…

      Global financiers and politicians on the other side of the globe. People of different culture, different language, and different mind sets than you…

      I respectfully suggest that you had best get your hope directed where it belongs – toward yourself, your family, and your closest friends and supporters.

      Free advice, and probably worth the price.

  • Anthony F December 12, 2011, 5:39 pm

    An Honest Christian perspective of Fiat Money…

    Fiat money is a kind of unrighteous wealth because it transgresses the laws of God. “A new global authority to regulate financial markets” is basically the same old thing. A body of so-called leaders who get appointed by the international banking cartel to regulate the financial markets that the international banking cartel invents. The gangsters hiring somebody to regulate what the gangsters do. Cheer non-sense.

    But yet far more than international gangsters. The question to ask is what spiritual powers operates behind this international banking cartel?

    Fiat money, the creation of money out of thin air, debt financing are all the same scam, different names for the same deception which transgresses God’s laws of righteousness. From a Biblical perspective all monetary systems are based on the Scales & Weights Principles.

    The global financial crisis is due to a global deception, which is fiat money.

    The answer is not some type of supranational authority with broad powers to regulate financial markets. The answer is not a global central bank. The answer is not a global government. The answer is getting back into honesty. Money to be something of value, of worth, like gold or silver. Men need to work to obtain gold or silver. So when you have gold or silver in your hands, you have value. That is why gold and silver have been money throughout history and throughout the world. Before, men used barter as a means of exchange. The point is that something has value. Fiat money destroys the value of everything, reducing it to an accounting entry….
    http://www.christianlightministry.com/money/

    • Robert December 12, 2011, 7:19 pm

      You can’t go wrong with weights and measures… The laws of physics essentially prove that for us; and you don’t even have to be religious or spiritual (although I have not issue with that either)

    • mava December 12, 2011, 10:01 pm

      Gary North, too, had made a great point in his economics of christianity, that the bible teaches us nothing but laises faire capitalism. This is the only not sinful way to live.

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 13, 2011, 9:47 am

      “Fiat money, the creation of money out of thin air, debt financing are all the same scam, different names for the same deception which transgresses God’s laws of righteousness. From a Biblical perspective all monetary systems are based on the Scales & Weights Principles”. ~~ Anthony F
      ————————————–
      Not so. You may be forgetting the Gospel of John 6:1-15, Anthony. At that time, during Passover on the Sea of Galilee, five loaves of bread and two fishes fed 5000 people with plenty leftover to fill the baskets again.

      Going back a little earlier to John 2:1-11 we note that water was turned into wine at a wedding in Cana, also on the Galilee. The wine supply had run out during the festivities. Six stone jars were thus filled with water but wine itself was drawn out and then given to the guests. It was remarked that the best had been poured first instead of last….

      Now I am not trying to be argumentative or irritating but Jesus was most certainly an inflationist. It is very clear from the writings. It also suggests one reason why we as Westerners living in a predominant Christian society have a cultural belief in being able to create something from nothing.

    • Buster December 13, 2011, 3:17 pm

      Jesus seemed to have a very clear take on things, which from a 21st century perspective, I find very intriguing. His symbolic demonstration of overturning the money changers’ tables is something we can understand for it’s significance even today. The subject of money, debt & commerce is covered quite a lot in the scriptures, too. It seems to boil down to a legal structure of commerce that secures fairness for all. A far cry from what has been engineered by the hands of crooked dealing men who want power.
      However, a business deal whereby both buyer & seller secure a fair market price, since neither one is favoured, is not what the moneychangers or most people seem to want, imho. My experience of most people shows the predominant desire to get something for nothing, & thus at someone else’s loss, a desire to commit a theft without accepting the responsibility, even. The self-seeking, predatory & status driven psychology is what I see as the driving force in human dealings from the top of the pyramid to the bottom. The system we have is an image of this mentality, made in man’s corrupt image, if you will. Why should the people expect a fair dealing system of rule when they are not fair in their own dealings? I hear apparently decent people putting their own luxury above the necessities of others, or claiming justification for their own importance over others, demanding the government ring fence their own privileges, whilst seeing it as right to take the next man’s. Bail us out as we deserve it more! Invade that country of peasants as they’re no good…..It all demonstrates the sick state of mind that is the root cause of the catastrophe which is the world.
      When the Bible talks about the god, Yahweh, being the judge, I think it is an important point to ponder, since good judgment is the foundation of a successful society, & surely necessary for allowing thel talents & qualities humans have to prosper, whilst keeping in check the terrible choices that free will allows to be possible.
      Ultimately. the world needs good judgement more than anything else. Without it, no amount of money printing or any other solutions offered will solve our problems that we are beginning to reap. I sincerely hope there is such a god, as I see no chance of this real solution coming from mankind whatsoever! Without such a possibility we appear to face a continuous replaying of the record until there is no world worth living in. Interestingly, the Bible is quite clear about humans having a limited mandate to self-rule, or Satanic rule as it states we are, supposedly, presently under. The mandate is limited both in time & geography, since we weren’t to spread our system of lawlessness into space, which is stated as being still under Yahweh’s rule. I have found it intriguing to see NASA footage of strange intervention of their missions in space by unknown ‘objects’ which have prevented them from doing certain things such as contaminating space with certain substances. It appears we can yet crap on the Earth but ‘they’ are not letting us spread our shit any further than that! Nor do we appear to be allowed to totally destroy the Earth either.
      The fact that something intelligent & far more advanced than known human society, is out there & paying close attention to human activity is no longer a question, in my experience. Whether it is what the ancients knew as the ‘gods’ is a possibility, & there are some amazing correlations, for sure. For instance, taking a look at the ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics symbol for the gods & it looks remarkably like a UFO! The bible’s description of encounters with God, the Angels, & even descriptions of Jesus’ life seem to show a strong chance of physical beings in craft being what it’s talking about. Not forgetting the indication that they seem to be able to achieve a high charge state.
      Sorry, I know we’re supposed to be talking about the financial crisis, but a lot of things seem to be connected when you look.

    • Robert December 13, 2011, 8:49 pm

      C’mon Cam…

      The only valid “inflationist” is the person who convinces you that their credit is more valuable than your Ass (as in Donkey, but the alternative meaning might be valid as well)

      Jesus was not a banker… Jesus chased the bankers out of the temple.

      Jesus only preached that the human being was the ultimate form of capital in God’s mind, and that we (individuals) should not yield the value of that capital to any other human being, nor should we destroy the value of that capital (by destroying each other)…

      Mava’s viewpoint is accurate in my opinion… Jesus was a Laissez Faire Capitalist who identified Humanity (not Gold) as the ultimate form of God’s money.

      So if Jesus was an inflationist then that conclusion can only be deduced from the aspect of the population dynamic resulting from the premise that no human should be denied their right to exist.

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 14, 2011, 6:30 am

      I am doing my best to ignore you Robert. You seem to be fixated on my comments. The thinly veiled ad-hominem’s and arrogance are pointless though and most of your remarks don’t make any sense to me at all. I do however respect that Rick allows alternative and contrary opinion on his site (even if some of those comments are sometimes written in exasperation). An open dialogue is important at a time like this. We are discussing serious issues and presumably working towards a common goal. That would be one that should be beneficial to the common welfare of everyone and not just a single agenda of any camp. So I will stay open minded but continue to voice my own concerns in my own way. Those views are just as legitimate as your own. Try not to get so personal with every response to me.

    • Robert December 14, 2011, 4:32 pm

      Fixated on your comments…?

      Well, maybe the one you posted immediately above. But, to be clear: You are as important to me as every other anonymous person I will pass on the street on my way to work this morning.

      If you think I am somehow compelled to be “picking on you” like some playground bully than I will not “thinly veil” my ad hominem response:

      You’re a wimp.

      Besides you, I also replied to Carol, Benjamin, Mark Uzich, Kerry Siggard, Anthony F, Rick, and to Mario in this thread.

      I was no more “fixated” on any of their comments than I was on yours, but am appreciative of the fact that none of them were compelled to be so petty. I thought we were all adults here.

      But when you post something as positively STUPID as saying that Jesus Christ favored fractional reserve monetary debasement, then how can you NOT expect a response from someone who has spent 30 years of his life formulating idealogical and philosophical parallels between Christ’s teachings and basic human rights (of which fair and equitable trade and commerce is paramount) ?

      You may have the last word in this exchange if you choose- I have said my peace.

  • Kerry Siggard December 12, 2011, 5:24 pm

    The marketplace was no longer safe because anyone’s account could be stolen. Doesn’t matter your investing prowess, the whole machine is breaking down and nothing is guaranteed any longer. No rule of law!

  • Kerry Siggard December 12, 2011, 5:22 pm

    Since i got no traction in the trading page, I’ll try here. My accounts are with Interactive Brokers. According to the article, IB has $14.5 billion hypothecated (and net worth $6 billion, I believe). Therefore, seems I’m justified in being worried, IB could be one bad bet away from wiping me out? Therefor, I should close my account. Then what, buy shares and demand the physical shares be mailed to me? What am I missing?

    P.S. Anyone remember reading about the lady broker who specialized in agricultural commodities? The day after MF Global went bankrupt, she closed out all her clients accounts and refunded their money–saying the marketplace was no longer safe.

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 13, 2011, 2:25 am

      You are not crazy to begin buying and holding your shares through the many avenues of direct purchase Kerry. You do not need a broker or a hedge fund or any of the myriad other entry points into the markets that might one day turn out to be a threat to your financial well being.

      I would be sick to my stomach if I discovered my funds on deposit had been packaged and sold unbeknown to me only to vanish into the ether on a bad day when a party I am wholly unaware of goes broke in the night.

      Even ETN’s can fail you by counter party risk while various derivatives and indexes can all pose potential threats. Maybe conservatism in investing means going back to the basics of buying shares of companies directly and doing it yourself. Rely on nobody.

      At least you know what you have and do not worry daily about all the small print in a confusing prospectus that you might have never even seen or signed on too. Most of them are impossible for normal humans to understand anyway.

      Most of us give way too much trust to the offers put before us. Just look at all the discussion that has evolved over GLD. To this very day I still do not really know if they actually have enough gold on hand or if it is just leased, loaned, lent or non-existent.

      That doubt can ruin your retirement if you make a mistake. On top of it all, the many extra fees extracted from brokers and agents can drain your meager profits in an off year. Is it any wonder that anyone with the skills to invest wants to go it alone?

      Hell, they already know what they want to buy anyway and can usually respond faster than a dealer without having to face commissions and surcharges. Like I say, conservatism may be more about controlling your portfolio independently and keeping a close eye on the inventory of the shares you hold.

      So there you go. Traction for a Monday evening.

    • Sean Geere December 13, 2011, 7:59 am

      Ann Barnhardt…….

      She is one gutsy lady. If 5% of the population was like her……..this nation would not be in the state it is in today.

  • John Jay December 12, 2011, 5:01 pm

    The world economic situation is bad enough, but the potential for global war is even worse. If Iran is attacked and shuts the straits to tanker traffic, we will respond in force. China and Russia may get involved.
    I think most of that ME oil goes to Europe. Russia will cut off their energy shipments to Europe at the start of winter. Oil spiking will be a knife to the heart back here in the US, not to mention the effect of 21st century Cuban Missile Crisis where we are all anticipating the end of the world. Should make for wild markets to say the least. All so a handful of greedy oligarchs can sit on a pile of money that they really have no good use for.

    • Robert December 12, 2011, 6:29 pm

      The whole Middle East/ Iran nuclear drama is Kabuki theater.

      The Russians have no real interest in Iran- they are leveraging the situation for other strategic purposes, and the Chinese, who are Iran’s largest purchaser of petroleum, would have been better served to work on toppling the Iranian power structure years ago; because Iranian nukes do not make China any stronger or more stable.

      As usual, the Chinese are a day late and a dollar short on making sure their best interests are met.

      Do you think that when the US assures China that the Iranian situation will not mean the disruption of Chinese oil supply that the Chinese won’t just say “Oh, well in that case just get this over with already”…?

      The Iranian situation is NOT going to drag China into a war with the US… not going to happen.

      All that being said- I think we have no business getting involved in the Middle East whatsoever.

      We need to just let that region fight it out until they reach exhaustion and capitulation.

  • ken horn December 12, 2011, 4:44 pm

    It seems that the back & forth on this thread is just a matter of semantics. If you look at the debacle right here in the good ol’ USA regarding our own debt, use that template to evaluate what’s going on in Europe. Here we have 17 countries in the eurozone run by socialist globocrats that all have different nationalistic views. They all have been suffocating under their imploding debt & collectively, they will never agree to any real austerity program. So, there you have it. Do you really believe that the scenario I just outlined will end well? You make the call.

  • ROGER, Canadian Libertarian December 12, 2011, 4:06 pm

    An ancient Roman saying: “Whom the Gods wish to DESTROY, they first make MAD”

  • Gary December 12, 2011, 3:39 pm

    USA has been printing dollars for years, excuse my ignorance but what is the difference if Europe does he same?

    • Robert December 12, 2011, 6:19 pm

      The issue isn’t about printing Euros- the issue is about bonding debt to the currency.

      The Europeans can not issue continental sovereign bonds to back stop the currency, and the current crop of national bonds in Europe are all pretty much dead money.

    • mava December 12, 2011, 9:57 pm

      That’s the problem, Gary, there isn’t.

      The US has been living for decades not on the output of its productivity, but on the output of a scam, supported by its military. Military forces everyone eat dirt of hold US dollars. Congress prints it to no end. Scam works. Except, the Earth has finite population, meaning there is only so much you can steal.

      So, we can’t allow a competitor (Euro), because if say, 50% of world wealth is stolen by Euro, then there is only a half left for us where there was whole before!
      We can tolerate it only if it is somewhat prudent, but then the more prudent it gets the more we worry that it going to protect people’s purses from Uncle Sam’s hand!

      So, US definitely wants it to fail (disregard all news blubber to the opposite), there can be only one king!

    • Buster December 12, 2011, 11:03 pm

      Yes Mava. Just one point I would add, is that TPTB sit on a global system of power. USA fell to them over a century ago, while Europe is part of their still older power base. There really is no conflict of interest between the US & the EU when we grasp that the real empire of the Elites is a long & well established global one consisting of the financial, corporate, military, media & religious systems.
      I would also agree with Cam on the Euro being something of a trial run before a global currency is rolled out, probably sold as a solution to more carefully planned financial calamity. TPTB don’t spend so much time & resources getting the European act together only to let it fail, unless they have the final solution ready to replace it.

      One thing the study of the history of these people clearly shows is their single mindedness & focus on their goals. Obstacles & resistance is simply worked around or through. They’re also very pragmatic. They’d never waste their time sitting out in the cold demonstrating, they just take what they want in whatever way is necessary. Totally ruthless, too, with no aparent national loyalties or moral handicaps like most people have.

    • mario cavolo December 14, 2011, 12:25 pm

      I disagree Robert in that, they can do whatever they damn well please including CHANGE the laws and policies as needed to reflect the need to respond to the current state of affairs to maintain the stability of the financial system and society. They have the ability to make choices, to make new choices, and they will do so as needed…just my view…

    • mario cavolo December 14, 2011, 12:28 pm

      Mava, nuts man! The US WANTS the Euro to fail…?! Nuts! The last thing in the world the U.S. needs is a skyrocketing USD!

      On the other hand…:) perhaps the European countries will become the next U.S. states to join the Union? Welcome to Italy the 51st state of the U.S. , etc…all then under a USD?

      Hmm, maybe that’s a good end game!

  • Buster December 12, 2011, 1:54 pm

    The global financial system will keep going as it is as long as it is profitable. Until the sheeple reject it & withdraw it’ll adjust however it needs to in order to keep fleecing them. The governments will also keep doing what they need to do to keep the debtor sheeple on the hook on behalf of the creditors. This is a centuries old scam based on debt that is still working just fine, even if it seems impossible to continue by so many. You need to put yourself in the shoes of the destitute in order to understand just how low things can go without the world caring a damn.
    The numbers don’t have to add up, though they may need to be adjusted to keep us all playing the game. Plenty of people are finding the comforts of tent living lacking the refinements being enjoyed by those getting handed as many digits on the screen as they want. Those making the rules of the game are quite happy for things to continue whatever new numbers they have to click to justify it carrying on. Do the math, or just look out the window, take your pick.
    When the sheeple withdraw their support for the whore, then that will signal the end of this financial scam, not when the numbers don’t add up. I mean, at what point should the system have failed, at 100% debt to assets?, 200%?…. And even when every new dollar created takes one out of the economy it won’t be the end, since as Zimbabwe demonstrates, the system only needs to keep a very few bellies well fed to stop things from changing. This is the system we get that caters to the few instead of a free market that allows human ingenuity to create prosperity for all…true capitalism, not the current corporate fascism with shameless politicians as front-men.
    You also need to keep in mind the global plan. This is the move toward a global currency & government, in order to make sure the Elitists have free reign with no competition forever, in order to enjoy their utopian dream of owning & controlling everything & everybody on Earth without dissent, in a world that panders to the self-interested, predatory nature of the corrupt.
    When the talk was of EU disintegration I surmised that, unless the time was already right for the implementation of the global currency & government (which I don’t believe it is, but who knows for certain?) then all the stops would be pulled out to keep the plan on track, with yet even closer integration. Never let a good disaster go to waste!..and historically we have to have at least the threat of a disaster to make us do what we’re supposed to. Then, after we’ve all moved closer towards the great world view according to the self interested few (the Zimbabwean blueprint), the markets will tell us it’s time to clap & be happy. The painkillers will be implemented to keep us believing that everything’s right in the world once more.
    In the meantime, we’ve got the leaders of the debtor countries replaced by economists in a flash & securing more austerity for the sheeple while the crooks live off the proceeds, a UK veto allowing closer EU integration without costly & time consuming rewriting of previous treaties, all the world’s financial media agreeing that the EU needs to print billions of digits on the screens lining Bankster offices, & the markets won’t rally until they do.

    Get your ass & your assets out of Babylon if you can, ‘cos sooner or later she’s going down!

    • Robert December 12, 2011, 6:14 pm

      Well what else did you expect..?

      After all – the American people pretty much elected Nebudchanezzar III in November 2008.

      Babylon’s fate is sealed.

      The mainstream media, The liberal academics, the black and minority communities, and the leftist global elite all saw a savior, a new chosen son of Nabu… and why?

      Because he wrote a book about how badly his father thought that white people suck…. You know, the same black father that knocked up the President’s white mother and then bolted on her shortly afterward…

      ANYONE who lives in the real world and trusts what they see with their own two eyes would have seen through Nebudchanezzar III, and would have identified an anonymous, unaccomplished, glory seeking, suspiciously private Chicago politician.

      Forget the Birth Certificate: Simply explain his Connecticut Social Security number- a state he NEVER lived in, worked in, or attended school in?

      Alan Keyes was censored in 2008 while Barack Obama was exhalted…

      Ask yourself: if this country was determined to have a minority President, then WHY were we only presented with this ONE option?

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 12, 2011, 7:06 pm

      Not bad Buster. I think you have the right idea. The number one reason the Euro will not fail is because it is the prototype for a global currency. If the Euro goes down there is little hope we will see another attempt at integration on such a scale in our lifetimes.

      Which just means we will revert to the old ideas of territorialism and settling resource disputes with weapons of war. But Europe is an old folks home with an upside down demographic. Who the hell would really go to war there anyway?

      I am certain meanwhile that a resolution is coming to bring a fiscal/political hybrid solution to meet the monetary union head to head. When the agreements are struck, that is when the printing will begin in earnest. Only after the ground rules are hammered out first and discipline taken more seriously by all the members of the EU.

      Not a day before. And that includes London.

  • mario cavolo December 12, 2011, 12:21 pm

    He writes like quite an informed jerk regarding China, ignorantly spouting off about ghost cities, letting himself join the party of clueless China-bashers who get sucked into that absurd Dateline video and he doesn’t even live here, so he certainly doesn’t have a CLUE. He’s arrogant, proved it again and again, and gets little respect from me….

    Cheers, Mario

    • Robert December 12, 2011, 5:44 pm

      Mario-

      Last I heard, there were 3 “Tyler Durdens” living full time in China.

      Are their observations any less well-formed than yours?

    • mava December 12, 2011, 9:49 pm

      mario,

      You are just the right guy to ask! So, are there or are there not communist built ghost cities in China?

      Cause, I’ve heard that too, and being from a communist country myself, I had not had a doubt even for one second, as I have seen so much waste myself. Commies can not abstain from creating waste, imho, but, I am not living in a communist country anymore (just socialist), so I’d like to hear your opinion.

    • mario cavolo December 14, 2011, 12:17 pm

      There are perhaps a dozen or two or three empty new community developments/neighborhoods planned by big SOE real estate developers which may just sit there for a few years and they’ll have to take those losses. Probably at least 50% of them will fill up no problem as the urban migration continues unabated over the next ten years…

      So my position is that the “phenomenon” is much more so an isolated matter, not at all a mainstream society real estate property issue. I did write extensively on the subject in previous posts if you wish to search…

      Your comment that they are “communist built” is silly and ancient and out of touch, you might want to reconsider as to the actual state of China current affairs…

      Cheers, Mario

  • Rick Ackerman December 12, 2011, 10:09 am

    ‘Tyler Durden’ is hardly anonymous, Cam. He’s a former hedge fund guy who was the subject of a lengthy and fascinating profile in The New Yorker.

    • Robert December 12, 2011, 5:42 pm

      Tyler Durden is a nom de plume first taken by one person when zerohedge was a “once a week”, one man blog on blogspot.

      The original Tyler Durden’s profile is as Rick describes above.

      Today, Tyler Durden is actually the alias of an entire global editorial board. No story submitted by any of the “Tylers” gets posted to Zerohedge without being vetted by several members of the core editorial team.

      Zerohedge typically elicites only one emotion from most people: they either love it or they hate it.

      One thing is certain- the brand of journalism that Zerohedge markets defininitely draws an angry readership, but that is because Zerohedge refuses to allow anyone to get away with believing that “Every problem has a diplomatic or polically correct solution”…

      ….Some problems don’t

  • mava December 12, 2011, 9:34 am

    The linked article, however, is a false alarm. The idiot author suggests these as the reasons for impending doom:

    “i) the lax London-based unregulated and unsupervised system which has allowed such unprecedented, leveraged monsters as AIG, Lehman and now as it turns out MF Global, to flourish until they end up imploding and threatening the world’s entire financial system, and ii) an implicit construct embedded within the shadow banking model which permitted the heaping of leverage upon leverage upon leverage..”

    …which means that he doesn’t even have a slightest clue. Anyone who thinks that there must be “regulation” is simply a ……. (you know). If he understood anything at all, he’d never said what he said. He is not even a tiny bit smarter than a savage that is pointing at the clouds and explains that we must have not feed the gods of thunder well enough.

    If he doesn’t understand even the basics, what can he tell us of the future?

    I am amazed it made it to Zero Hedge… a Christmas joke may-be?

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 12, 2011, 9:47 am

      But the article….it is from Tyler Durden.

      You know him…..he is that anonymous Zero-hedge guy. So therefore it must all be true because we already know that the main-steam media are a pack of liars and manipulators but unknown writers in the blog-world are all reliable and well trusted.

      Why would anyone doubt the veracity of his commentary?

    • Rick Ackerman December 12, 2011, 10:06 am

      What I got from the article, Mava, among myriad other useful facts that almost no one else is talking or writing about, is that Europe’s mountainous credit edifice is at least four times the notional value of the worthless collateral that supports it.

      I guess such factoids appeal only to us stupid guys.

    • Benjamin December 12, 2011, 11:50 am

      The problem with regulations of a fiat system is not that the regs are certain to not work. Rather, the problem is that there is no way to be reasonably certain that everyone is being honest, that the regs are or are not working. In practice, that will always be true. But not in theory. Nothing in the theory of paper money dictates that it has to fail to dishonesty. That is a human failing.

      But Mr. “Durden” wasn’t even advocating more useless regulations. Rather, he was illustrating the inherently deep flaws of the system, by presenting the many points of failure in which fraud can be commited. Presented in that manner, the target audience (laypersons) are easily lead to the question as to how regulations can work in “accounting”-based systems, when anyone and everyone can lie.

      Mava’s Mop-Meet-Floor Moment: But that, apparently, just wooshed right over your head…

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 12, 2011, 7:30 pm

      Actually, I have to retract my comment, Rick. The ZH article was actually pretty well done. Enough to cause anyone with even a slim idea of the financial workings of the world to break into a cold sweat. What my remarks were actually saying was that I (like so many others), am suffering from denial and cannot see a solution to a mess this big. It just seems easier to pretend the problem does not exist.

    • mava December 12, 2011, 9:44 pm

      Rick, I wasn’t bitching about Tyler. Wasn’t it the dude named “Christopher Elias” who in his wisdom has determined that if we were regulated, then everything would be fine? I thought Tyler clearly points to the author (http://newsandinsight.thomsonreuters.com/Securities/Insight/2011/12_-_December/MF_Global_and_the_great_Wall_St_re-hypothecation_scandal/).

      I, was wondering why would Zero Hedge post something so ridiculous, and my guess was that this is a joke.

      As for the debt… Rick, your next door neighbor may have 10 times the debt that the collateral. Why doesn’t that worry you at all, but Europe’s deal does?

      &&&&&

      Whatever Reuters’ reporter may be advocating in the way of regulation, Mava — and yes, I agree that anyone who thinks we need more government regulation of the fiinancial markets is either an imbecile or a leftist stooge — can be forgiven because of the pellucid clarity the author has brought to the inner workings of the financial markets.

      As for eurodebt vs neighbordebt, I always assume readers understand that the gravity of America’s debt troubles matches Europe’s. It’s possible that when all the OPM-runners flee into the “safety”of dollars and Treasurys, they know they may be buying only a few hours’ time. I’ve likened this to a hundred shipwrecked sailors, sighting a tsunami on the horizon, climbing onto a frail palm tree on an island no bigger than your basement. RA

    • ebear December 12, 2011, 10:02 pm

      Character assassination is no substitute for a cogent argument. If you got one, make it, or at least link to it.
      Otherwise you’re just another internet junkie blowing smoke up our collective ass.

    • mava December 13, 2011, 12:18 am

      ebear,

      And how many times an argument should be made? It has been made countless times, here, on this board and everywhere else. Try Google? Try “Murray Rothbard on Regulation”?

      Or, do you want to enter this yourself and show us why we need regulations? Recall that it is unreasonable for me to go ahead and provide a proof of why we don’t need “Drengrates” and “Ferrunteres” and “Civionsers”, because there is an innumerable quantity of things we don’t need. It is, however a burden of those arguing in favor of a thing to be added, to show why this might be beneficial.

      But, I can help you with seeing that showing logically the need for regulation is a Siziphus’ Work. Because regulation assumes that the two freely contracting parties do not have their best interest in mind, which is patently wrong, because a third party can not possibly show that it knows what is best interest of the other two parties!

      People make unassuming mental jump from the necessity of the law, which protects against UNVOLUNTARY action and results thereof, to supposed necessity of Regulation, which is unnecessary for it either deals with something that is already or ought to be covered by lay because it is unvoluntary action, or it deals with something that is a voluntary action and therefore does not have a standing.

    • mava December 13, 2011, 12:33 am

      Rick,

      You do not care if your neighbor loses it because it is unlikely that you will be forced to share his loses.

      You will be forced to share the losses of Europe.

      The tool which will be used to force you is the fiat money feature that all holders lose value through dilution.

      Therefore, the problem is the fiat money that place us all at risk of sharing the losses of those who incorrectly calculated their risks, or blatantly aimed for bailout.

      The talk of regulation is always used to substitute the topic, in order to fool you and me in forgetting the issue of fiat money, and thus in allowing the system to continue.

      What is the premise of regulation? That we can have atrocious accounting system (money) if we only bandage it with regulation, that is to insure that naturally unstable system remain standing.

      And why do we need to do that instead of simply opting for a naturally stable system? Because who ever pays mister Christopher Elias, surely needs this flawed accounting system, so that he can continue stealing from us through yet another one of innumerable ways, which later on, I can assure you, will be added to the regulation target lists.

      The key here, is “later on”. The purpose is to forever be stealing, by periodically adding a recently used method to the list of regulated ways, and to shift to another method, but to always blame the lack of regulation, therefore keeping the flawed system in place.

    • mario cavolo December 14, 2011, 12:22 pm

      Robert, accurate is accurate. Rhetoric is rhetoric. On many things I know what I don’t know. On
      China particularly when reality is misrepresented or distorted, I’ll be the first to say so…take it for what’s its worth, as when I do open my mouth, it is not actually just “me” it is the collective minds, ideas and intelligence of the group of professional foreign expats who live here together and of which I am surrounded here, I AM talking about the MOST in the know people on the planet. “We” do know exactly what we are talking about when it comes to this place and its relation to the rest of the world, be wary of all other opinions that don’t have a definitive on the ground first hand root…ZH way too quickly follows the crowd opinion on China…

      Cheers, Mario

  • mava December 12, 2011, 9:20 am

    My friend, you know why it a very sad thing to know the truth?

    Because, such is the human nature, that if you know the truth, then like Cassandra you might just as well be mute. People won’t listen. They just won’t. Because, in their ridiculous ignorance, they must have some stupid dream, and they will do anything to ignore you, so that their stupid dream lives on.

    No matter how many times and how “laymen” you explain to them the truth, they must keep tinkering with their stupid solutions designed to keep the magic going, peeling the covers of the truth one by one like an onion, getting closer and closer to the final fire at the same time.

    At each step, they will shake forth and back, first in horror of what they now see, then in familiar stupid belief in their miracles they call “solutions”. Until, one day, they finally step in to the final ring of fire and start screaming.

    That day, sadly, they still won’t realize you’ve been telling them about this all along. Too bad, for at the very least, they might have learned to listen.

    So, my friend. Stop telling them. Reject a weak fate of Cassandra, accept instead the strong one of Nero. Sit back and enjoy their screams, for they deserve them if not by their mistakes then by their refusal to be warned and refusal to take evasive action. They are the dumbest of dumb, let them burn and enjoy the show, for, yes they will say you didn’t care, anyway. They have to as such is their share, – to be an idiot one must never admit it.

    =========

    I say f them all who do not care to get ready. I’ll enjoy the show.

  • PhotoRadarScam December 12, 2011, 8:10 am

    Of all of the plans I have seen, the only goal appears to be to kick the can down the road. Where is the exit plan? Where is the plan to actually pay off the debt? There is none. At best, plans hinge on an assumption that “good times will come” and the coffers will overflow again (although I’m not sure they ever did since increased spending absorbed any historic increase in revenue). But even if good times are coming in the foreseeable future, is there anyone that believes that any surplus revenue would actually be applied to reduce existing debt loads? Of course not! The poli-trixters will spend it frivolously, and the debt levels will continue to increase.

  • Benjamin December 12, 2011, 6:32 am

    In other words, we have the (dys)functional equivalent of a trillion of people, each with a trillion claims to the name Spartacus. Which is fine, I guess, except that there isn’t a single, living Spartacus in the entire solar system!

    All lies. All nothing. Yes, it was all destined to fail…

    &&&&&

    Yes, but there are infinite Spartaci living outside of the solar system, Ben, millions of whom have yet to be crucified. If you catch my drift. RA

    • Benjamin December 12, 2011, 10:02 am

      Okay, okay Rick… point taken. But from where shall we accquire enough crosses and Appian Way along which to display so many nonpresent Spartaci? Too…

      http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2011/12/nativity-scene-is-a-superstition-says-atheist-group-but-santa-can-stay/

      …the FFRFs of the world would have a _fit_ over such “Christian” displays. Plans A, B, and C struck out before they went to bat. I’m loving this. No matter what, the system’s done screwed, blewed, and tattooed itself!

    • Rich December 13, 2011, 11:03 pm

      I like Mario and respect his views.
      Maybe the point is that those busy with income or jobs have more optimism that those without much buit a lot of time on their hands to see what a fraud the financial system became…

  • Dennis December 12, 2011, 5:49 am

    It has to collapse!
    Gold is not an inflation hedge but a crisis hedge.A gold standard will NOT fix this mess. It’s the debt! Europe nor the U.S can pay that debt.Neither has any intention of ever paying that debt. So let us get on with it & default & start all over again! That will be the end result anyway. So who are we fooling? Just those who prefer to be fooled! This is why gold is now rising. Just buy gold & enjoy the hedge. We can’t fix the system. It has to collapse!
    “Martin Armstrong”

  • John Jay December 12, 2011, 5:25 am

    Man, what a witches brew of economic, political, and military chaos. Europe, Russia, China, Egypt, Syria, Libya, Israel, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Aghanistan, all boiling over with economic and political tornados. And Uncle Sam, with a greedy finger in every pie over there.
    Social Security is on the ropes, but DC thinks the payroll tax cut is a solution instead of making the debt situation here even worse. MF Global rips off a billion or so, but the Koch brothers got out early. How fortunate for them! Corzine doesn’t know where the money is, but he’s sorry about it! Newt, (Dick Cheney light) is a contender! Lucky us! Oh well, one thing for sure, when the end finally comes, the Big Players will come out on top, as usual. Poor us.

  • mario cavolo December 12, 2011, 4:37 am

    Rick, I have to give you and the rest of the “collapse clan” full credit for consistently and intelligently beating the drum.

    So in other words, there are people out there in the world who believe that the total collapse of the banking system is somehow less so such ridiculously absurd poppycock than continued inflation and declining purchasing power of a currency such as the USD or EURO…?

    I’m curious what the world’s Fortune 1000 companies, you know, the ones who are healthy and vibrant and have reasonable PE’s and book ratios and are doing plenty of great business and employing millions across the globe, yes THOSE Fortune 1000 companies, I wonder what they are going to do when this supposed collapse comes…indeed, Armageddon here we come.

    The collapse boogie man story is fully played out. Therefore, of course the collapse is coming and by the end of the year. Classic contrarian thinking. Borrow and short every penny you can and you’ll be rich. Now. Now…hurry up…

    Maybe…Hmm…

    • Rick Ackerman December 12, 2011, 7:53 am

      Those Fortune 1000 companies are going to have to learn how to do business without access to easy credit and with customers who are much more frugal at best, broke and/or headed into bankruptcy at worst. Concerning the continuation of inflation, it has taken hundreds of trillions of virtual dollars just to boost the price of stocks, financial derivatives, groceries, health care and a couple of other things (although, significantly, not housing). In fact, it is now requiring more than $20 worth of debt-based “stimulus” — up from a post-War low of 56 cents — to create a single dollar’s worth of GDP growth. How much longer do you think “inflation” of this sort can go on, Mario, especially now that Germany has effectively vetoed the monetization of Europe’s debts?

    • Aussie Mick December 12, 2011, 10:18 pm

      OK Mario…tell us who’s payroll you are on….”supposed collapse”…anyone who can continue taking your stand lives in a bubble. From the crap that flows from your pen..I would guess that you are in bed with Goldman Sachs..or one of the other too big to fails…or maybe a defacto of Rockefeller. Bet you believe that Monsanto are ‘green’…or that BIG PHARMA are looking after the health of world’s population…or that Bill Gates is not a eugenist…or that the the United Nations is a humanitarian organisation…maybe you believe 9 /11 WAS’NT an inside job…You are pushing a barrow for someone…come clean…who owns you? Because you are ‘owned’…you will still espouse the same crap…you have no credibility..hang up your pen.

      &&&&&&

      Mick:

      Optimists like Mario are in short supply around here, so please be gentle. I can attest that he is self-employed and works harder than most to make a success of his business. It involves creating and growing commerce and trade between China, the U.S. and other countries.

      RA

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 13, 2011, 1:51 am

      Yes, there is truth to that, Rick and it is a concern for many working folk who are depending on hand-outs. The Fortune 1000 and pretty much everyone else who relies on government contracts to keep the books in the black could be facing some troubling times.

      Lets all keep that in mind next time we buy into an industry that is heavily reliant and government largesse, subsidies, gifts, grants, protection of markets etcetera. Like the big military players, pharma-giants, the oh-so-heavily subsidized Ags and even the so-called “green” business’s such as Ethanol producers with their golden tax breaks.

      It is actually hard to find any big companies that do not feed directly or indirectly from the hand of the benevolent taxpayer. A great deal of that money could well dry up if serious budget cutting ever got underway here and the results will be rising unemployment and falling earnings.

    • mario cavolo December 14, 2011, 12:02 pm

      Aussie Mick, easy man, I’ve got lots of good Aussie friends here in Shanghai… this forum is a fabulous place for intelligent argument, a bit of blowing off steam but outright personal attacks and don’t assume too much, at Rick’s one can read plenty of poster’s previous posts, even google their names and go to their websites before jumping to conclusions…

      And I would relish to join you and all of us together at a party to hang the GS et al elitist politico-banksters by their thumbs who have for all practical purposes destroyed an entire strata of economic society in their historically unprecedented sweeping wealth grab…

      But meanwhile, while the system is deeply flawed and ruined, then how the hell do we explain that rising USD, ahem, its rising not collapsing, a ludicrous idea considering!!….and good grief, you think the U.S. wants that to happen?…When the Euro gets down to 1:1 par with the USD, plenty of money will start back flowing into Europe, no collapse, just some big adjustments and ongoing inflation…we could go on and on, its a nightmare indeed.

      Cheers, Mario