Inflation vs. Deflation: Elevating the Debate

Chiding the inflationistas here yesterday, we elicited a torrent of informative responses, including the 5000th post to the Rick’s Picks forum (worth a free 30-day subscription to the lucky lady!).  We’re going to stick with this provocative topic for now, since we think it’s crucial that readers understand why deflation will be with us for a ruinous while, notwithstanding The Guvvamint’s desperately extravagant but so far ineffectual attempts to resuscitate inflation in the housing sector. A popular misconception is that the Fed stands ready to do “whatever it takes” to beat deflation. In fact, the Fed has already shot trillions of dollars at the problem without producing even the tiniest blip in home prices. That’s because countervailing forces of deflation are drawing irresistible power from the deleveraging of a global financial edifice once valued at nearly a quadrillion dollars. Under the circumstances, Helicopter Ben & Co. might as well be attempting to raise the level of the seas using a garden hose. For our part, we have long expected home prices to fall by at least 70%, and nothing we’ve seen so far has changed our outlook. The implication is that home prices, even after having fallen for nearly three years at the steepest rate since the Great Depression, are no more than halfway to the bottom.

In its day, barely enough for strudel and coffee

Concerning the inflation-vs-deflation debate, we’re going to try and kick the level of discussion up a notch or two with a couple of suggestions.  First, because the pro and con arguments often bog down in pseudo-intellectual claptrap about what constitutes “money,” we are going to provide you with foolproof way to recognize deflation for what it is – namely, an increase in the real burden of debt. Some will say that this is just a symptom of inflation, but we would tell them that it is ultimately only the symptoms that matter. Trust us on this: You’re a deflationist, just like us, if you believe that paying off your mortgage, servicing the $200,000 debt your daughter racked up attending Vassar, and retiring at 65 will not get any easier within the foreseeable future. If, on the other hand, you believe that Helicopter Ben and his band of tooth fairies will come to the rescue, raising your real income very substantially and causing perpetual increases in the value of your home sufficient to allow you to borrow against it just like in the good old days, then you are an inflationist.

When Money Dies

Our second suggestion is that you beg, buy, steal or borrow a copy of Adam Fergusson’s book, When Money Dies: The Nightmare of the Weimar Hyper-inflation. Used original copies of this minutely detailed and fascinating work go for upwards of $800, but if you search the web for the title, you can turn up cheaper ways to access it.  The book is essential for anyone who wants to understand why it would be impossible for the U.S. to trigger off a hyperinflation in the way the Germans did. The mechanisms simply don’t exist.  Fergusson will save you the trouble of searching a million web pages to find out how all those D-marks actually got into the hands of German workers. Surely this question has occurred to you, right?  Nearly all sources say the same thing – i.e., that the government revved up the printing presses, and… Bitteschön!… hyperinflation simply happened. In fact, putting a google of D-marks into circulation required a degree of collusion between the government and large employers that could not exist in the U.S. without major changes in the law.

It turns out that certain large German companies were allowed to print their own money in times of emergency. Because they did so most promiscuously when Germany’s official-currency printers were on strike, as occurred several times, the ironic result was that the most severe stretches of hyperinflation during the nearly three-year period occurred when sovereign notes were not even being printed. Another revelation from Fergusson is that some officials failed to see a hyperinflation threat even when money-creation was at full-bore. Would America’s political leaders be so stupid as to let hyperinflation occur inadvertently? And, was screwing the allies out of war reparations Germany’s motive for hyperinflating? In fact, maintaining a high level of employment was the primary goal, and it worked to the extent that Germany in 1921 had full employment while the war’s victors were wallowing in joblessness. This book is a great read, and the answers you’ve been looking for are all here.

(If you’d like to have Rick’s Picks commentary delivered free each day to your e-mail box, click here.)

  • Darren August 18, 2010, 1:47 pm

    Just wanted to point out that “CPI…rose 0.9% over the past year. ” & “…the near-term risks of it plunging all the way to zero or below have certainly receded.”
    http://money.cnn.com/2010/08/13/news/economy/consumer_price_index/index.htm

    This does point away from deflation & towards inflation. Not hyperinflation, but double digits can be a big problem too.

  • Oliver August 9, 2010, 8:06 am

    I’ll guess there are at least two to three million Americans who adhere to a couple of succinct mottos: 1. You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers, and 2. It’s better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. This is a group that could catch fire at some point.
    — Doug Casey

  • richard August 9, 2010, 5:10 am

    The real burden of debt is the loss of freedom.There is no individual control over the debt created for us by governments. We do not care. We are selfish and old, leaving others to clean up after us.
    We look too often at the effects on an individual level.
    Look at the effect on your children and grandchildren.
    If money costs nothing, can gather no real interest, then what is its true value? Basically, just what it says, legal tender to repay a debt. Or an in use value. If only the banks can make money on interest, we face liquidation, using up capital to live. Capital formation dies. Yet cheap money is suppose to solve all our ills. Does it? Has it? Can it?
    No money unless it is first earned, taxes paid on it, then subject to real world supply and demand. The best ideas financed, the dross rejected.

    &&&&&

    I hadn’t seen this mentioned here before, but you’ve hit on an important aspect of the current deflation: banks are the only entities that can make money on interest. Even the lowest credit card rates they charge are higher than the returns that top a hedge fund could conceivably earn, let alone what individual borrowers can earn on their money. Keynes would of course see nothing wrong with this — nor, apparently, have Bernanke, Obama or anyone in Congress except Ron Paul.

    I’ve repeatedly stated here that 5% mortgages would someday become a crushing burden on homeowners, since, in a deflation, that could conceivably represent a real-rate burden of 10% or more. (In actual experience, factoring in a 30% decline in home prices over the last two years, real rates in relation to collateral have been closer to 20%.) It now seems possible that mortgage rates could go to 3% or even lower — but even that will prove asphyxiating for debtors as home prices continue to fall. RA

  • JohnJay August 8, 2010, 7:21 pm

    Well, in the grand tradition of New Century and Countrywide, Fannie Mae has brought back nothing ($1000) down, 100% financing.
    http://blogs.ajc.com/kyle-wingfield/2010/08/06/fannie-mae-brings-back-no-downpayment-mortgages/
    The Federal Government will do everything in its’ power to drag out and delay the real estate collapse.
    To repeat my earlier post, here comes new, lower interest rates on all that bad paper that Matrix dwellers Fannie/Freddie/FHA bought from private sector bag holders. Keep the chumps paying something so you never have to actually realize the loss on the mortgages that F/F/F are stuck with.
    I’ll bet Barney Frank approves!

  • ful_karboy August 8, 2010, 11:44 am

    Rich has some good points about deflation and I was more concerned about inflation, a few years back. I think the previous whopping increases in the money supply and credit showed up in the housing bubble partially due to tax laws on capital gains, at least here and in England. Since the housing bubbles burst around the world, $Trillions were lost there and in the markets so that offsets the QE etc. and we have the “poverty effect” offsetting the previous “wealth effect” from rising home and portfolio values. Since many folks view inflation as more money chasing a declining or less rapidly expanding amount of goods, it’s not happening as there’s less credit and money going to people who would’ve previously spent most of it and over-capacity to produce many things, so where there’s actual competition things aren’t rising much.

    Along with less credit available, the anti-business mindset of the present administration and the increasing burdens they place on small businesses, plus threatening to raise the taxes of the successful ones and confiscate half their wealth at death, deflation looks more likely. Where will growth come from with less jobs being created than folks entering the workforce?

    Best of luck to all, we may need it.

  • Keith August 8, 2010, 3:48 am

    Rick, as far as the inflation vs. deflation thing goes you are way behind the eight ball. Prices have been rising for the last 100+ years. Yes, there have been hiccups along the way and I’m sure we’ll see more in the future.

    What would it take for you to declare that you are right? Put some money into the pot here so we can define things. Are we talking $30 a barrel of oil and $2 corn? I don’t think that will happen but the big problem is for you to be justified in your opinion that is exactly what needs to take place.

    I have a question for you. Which, is the upshot of the whole debate of inflation vs. inflation. You see, the deflation issue isn’t something for today. It’s been around for decades and who has been wrong? Who has been right?

    The question is… why did the treasury default on gold back in 1971? Don’t reply, ” they didn’t want to honor it”. That’s not the blunder they made.

    They thought something else was going to happen. What was it?? Anyone please.

    Then, and only then, can we start to zero in on the deflation debate.

  • warren August 8, 2010, 12:19 am

    I’ve never seen the “law” be any obstruction to what government and big business can conspire to do.

  • Oliver August 7, 2010, 8:02 pm

    A hyperinflation in the US will collapse everything and everybody as there is nothing scarce in the US, especially not real estate.
    A home might cost 5 million, but a loaf of bread will be 5 million, too.
    Food will not be there until money stabilizes or gold and silver have taken it´s place. The way the US is structured today a hyperinflation is armageddon with the army disintegrating, the financial system dead and the government everywhere and anyone but not in Washington and no “normal” unifying president. A hyperinflation in the US will mean “Postman” like Kevin Costner suggested.
    You´re talking about hell, if you talk about a US hyperinflation. Law and order will be emancipated, nothing less.

  • FranSix August 7, 2010, 7:33 pm

    A simple way of describing how inflation and deflation work is the Net Present Value curve:

    http://hspm.sph.sc.edu/COURSES/ECON/invest/npvup3.gif

    At discount rates above ~8.5% (an inflationary scenario,) the Net Present Value of your business is below zero and does not generate an Internal Rate of Return. (On the chart its supposed to be 80% +, but I think that’s very over-stated.)

    At discount rates below ~0.54%( a deflationary scenario,) the Net Present Value of your business is below zero again, and again, does not generate an IRR.

    In either scenario, your business is unprofitable because it can’t keep up with inflation.

    Gold mining companies with a growth scenario when gold is rising would be the inverse, because gold will adjust for inflation in either scenario, but when interest rates are moderate, gold miners should underperform as would the gold price.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/11747277@N07/4825171381/

    source: http://hspm.sph.sc.edu/COURSES/ECON/invest/invest.html

  • Rick Ackerman August 7, 2010, 6:47 pm

    Monetization of government debt seems likely to bring on hyperinflation in the way Peter Schiff has predicted, although probably not in time to emancipate mortgage debtors at the expense of the banks, savers and lenders. Schiff foresees a day when buyers desert Treasury paper, forcing the Fed to buy it all. This would naturally cause a run on all other bond markets that do not have the benefit of official support, including municipal and corporate. When the Fed steps in to “save” those markets too, that is when we will have hyperinflation. Such a rescue attempt would destroy more “wealth” in mere hours than deflation will have destroyed in several years up to that point.

    It’s hard to say exactly what gold will do in this epic whipsaw, but it’s probably not going to be easy to trade bullion for farmland when gold’s price peaks. For what it’s worth, the biggest winners during the Weimar hyperinflation were people who bought farmland in 1921 and early in 1922 using 100% financing. As it happened, potatoes and other food staples held their relative value well during the nearly two-and-a-half-year hyperinflation. RA

    • BDTR August 7, 2010, 7:20 pm

      Btw, thanks for this intelligent forum, your able moderation, …and the button.

  • BDTR August 7, 2010, 5:09 pm

    I’d like to suggest an inflation of reply buttons, Rick.

    The inability to reply to your comments proximate to an initiating post, for example, deflates the discussion. Limiting replies may be an intentional control objective, but can there really be too much of a good thing?

    In any case, sorry if my post was unclear. But in re-reading, it seems that your response was on the money, as it were, in terms of a basic disagreement.

    Whereas there’s danger to oversimplifying a definition of something with consequences of stupefying complexity, there’s also hazard in mistaking cause and effect amidst that complexity. That’s especially true in an enormous and dynamic economy so saturated with suspect statistical information, not the least of which is the CPI on which you seem willing to plant your argument.

    As to an absent ‘whiff of inflation’, despite the best efforts to suppress it’s best detector for decades, gold has made strides for a decade in overcoming it’s adversaries in telling a very different tale of relative monetary value.

    I see no prospect for change in monetary policy, a contraction in the monetization of expanding government debt, nor the political ability to wilfully collapse our designed to in-debt and inflate financial system.

    I do see an end of enabling global confidence in that system, and the limited options to the Fed and Treasury thereafter.

  • Darren August 7, 2010, 2:52 pm

    “For our part, we have long expected home prices to fall by at least 70%, and nothing we’ve seen so far has changed our outlook. The implication is that home prices, even after having fallen for nearly three years at the steepest rate since the Great Depression, are no more than halfway to the bottom.”

    This seems to imply that you think housing prices aren’t falling as fast as they should. Remembering my point from the cockroach article that inflation is also prices not falling when they should let me add that prices not falling as fast as they should is also inflation. The quote above would seem to back my assertion.

    Part of the problem is the number zero. A zero rate of inflation or deflation is considered to mean none. In many people’s minds inflation is prices rising above it & deflation is prices falling below it. This is mistaken. Where they are & which way thy move relative to a zero rate is irrelevant. Prices rising, falling, &/or stabilizing relative to each other are what count. Which goes back to my point that inflation can be occurring while prices fall if they aren’t falling as fast as they would in the absence of quantitative easing.

    • Rick Ackerman August 7, 2010, 6:42 pm

      Home prices are not collapsing at the moment simply because, even in a collapse, prices do not fall in a straight line.

  • david August 7, 2010, 1:52 pm

    This is great to increase activity on your blog thats good business.But from an intellectual standpoint it is an exercize in feutility as theorists are debating realists.You state Prechter is the best of the best deflationist prophet yet what good is info if I cannot take that info and convert it into some form of equity especially in the business we are in.Saying oh yea he missed it on Gold is like saying I had the best cardiosurgoen professor operate on my heart and he knows more about ventricular defects but he treated my atrium.Did not help me…….knowledge is useless…wisdom is everything cause it is knowledge applied and achieving the desired or intended or correct outcome.Buy gold and silver whether inflation or deflation folks.Simplicity is elegance and also true wisdom.

    • Rick Ackerman August 7, 2010, 6:39 pm

      It’s obvious that you haven’t read any of Prechter’s books, since, gold investments aside, he precisely predicted the economic environment we are in. And let’s cut him some slack where gold is concerned, since foreseeing its performance during a ruinous, global debt deflation was always going to pose a dilemma for the deflationist, like trying to square the circle. RA

  • gary leibowitz August 7, 2010, 7:34 am

    Anyone in the inflation camp should just look at this experiment being played out today. Helicopter Ben boasted that he can prevent deflation and here we are.

    What people don’t realize is that it isn’t he replacement of debt over cash that has us falling into a tailspin. It’s the lack of faith that the debt will ever be paid. M3 is in a sickly trajectory simply because lenders aren’t lending and borrowers aren’t borrowing. banks are in such a black hole that it would take decades of a steady healthy economy to recover. Consumers are drawing down debt not seen for a generation. Fear has replaced greed and complacency. The human psyche, once changed, will take a long time to recover.

    As an aside, Bill Gross, “the” bond guy has recently conceded that his notion that inflation will accelerate is now in the camp that deflation will hit us hard. he has predicted bony yields will continue to fall.

  • Oliver August 7, 2010, 3:07 am

    ricecake: you said it. This is exactly what´s happening. Everything the individual needs for real rises in price, everything extra and luxurious is falling in prices including pensions, savings and assets. This is what happens when a real main street deflation is inflated with investment-led paper money to try to keep the interest rates low and nominal asset prices at “bankable” levels.
    South-Americanization of the US I think nails it.

    Obesity comes mostly from really bad food, not so much from much food. Or better, too much really bad food, low net nutritional value. Poorer people, who are given enough shit to eat turn obese. It´s a particularly perverse form of social starvation. It kills illiterate and poor people, while it makes the concerns rich.
    America needs a serious revolution like France. Get guillotines or get used to a very different America all too soon.
    Anybody got up from their couch right away? No? Then get used to a slow death.
    Coca Cola and Hamburgers will be there.

    • ricecake August 7, 2010, 4:18 am

      “bankable” levels.
      That’s it. Whatever bankable and whenever there fools stupid enough to believe it and buy it you can make money. All hells brokes when too many greedy people suck dry of the future 50 -100 year’s profits. ” Derivatives or future trading they call.” That’s why your children and grand children have not much to live for when you are not one of those who already made it on Wall Street or Main Street.

      Like one can get rich from selling the Chicken, the egg, and the unborn Chickens from those eggs, and then the eggs from those unborn chicken, and then again the egg from those unborn chicken too. lol.

  • ricecake August 7, 2010, 1:06 am

    Deflation, my a**! Things become more complicated than you know. As they say DIVERSIFICATION OF YOUR RISK WHEN INVESTING. NOW DEFLATION AND INFLATION ARE ALSO DIVERSIFIED. NOT ALL DEFLATION INFLATION ARE THE SAME.

    Inflation: Just ask yourself this question: “How come my paycheck buy less and less by months? ”

    1) Every grocery bill now is 20% – 30% more than few years ago.

    2) Parking cost here in the city cost 50% more in compare 5 years ago. I would really really love to that deflated. But no and never.

    3) Tuition cost more about 20%.

    4) Healthcare insurance cost more

    5) Gas still higher than 4 years ago.

    6) D.W.P increasing

    7) Rent still high although not higher than the highest.

    8) All public transportation is increasing

    9) Postal cost – stamps is increasing

    10) Consumer goods will go up soon due to increase cost in material energy and labor and the cost of the countries where those goods made.

    Deflation:

    You salary

    Your investment.

    Your home price. ( But you don’t have to own a home. You can rent, which is going up too.

    You may hope since income is deflating so everything else should too. But there is the other side of the oceans their are fighting inflation. You have to compete with them for the items you are paying. If you don’t better price, you can’t get the item you want. Japan’s problem is aging population. The old people over there eat very little consume very little. But the fat Americans are the consumption champion of the world regardless job or no job. They won’t starve. Just look at how fat they are. How can people be that fat if they are starving? But it’s a dam good idea to keep the jobless population as fat as possible that way they can’t go around riot easily due to obesity. Also it’s good to the social programs budget cut should many die of morbid obesity ASAP. lol.

  • Max Power August 6, 2010, 9:48 pm

    RE: Rich

    “Despite gold up $14 today, some flaws in Sam Hewitt PhD CFA reasoning: Japan fought debt deflation with monetary inflation from 1990 on.

    The paper by Sam Hewitt was written in 1996. To that point in time, this is what he said:

    “An increasing demand for cash, weak domestic demand for imports, high real interest rates, and other factors, created a surge in the Japanese yen. These
    factors helped favor the yen over gold as a hoarding vehicle in the early stages of Japan’s deflation. Gold was not sold for yen in this environment, as the World
    Gold Council’s quarterly gold demand figures demonstrate.2 It’s just that since the yen performed so much better, there was no incentive to hoard gold.3 Eventually, the higher yen created a deflationary feedback loop, as a decline in export competitiveness inflicted damage on Japan’s internal export-producing sector. In early 1995 – at the height of the yen bubble – Japan’s policymakers capitulated to inflationary policies designed to stimulate domestic demand and to devalue the yen. The situation’s urgency was heightened by poor credit conditions of the nation’s
    financial system. Against this concerted effort to devalue the yen, gold rose sharply in yen terms.”

    There is nothing flawed about what Sam Hewitt said in in his paper. To the contrary, it was a brilliant piece or research and analysis that has predicted very well exactly what we see happening. Perhaps you can produce one of equivalent merit? One that will prove itself just as accurate 14 years into the future?

    &&&&&&

    And let’s not forget that other group of big losers, the sovereign funds of our dear friends, the oil-producing nations. They fervently embraced the diversification model pioneered by Harvard’s endowment fund, and it cost them a bundle (i.e., 3.4 days worth of oil production). RA

  • Other Paul August 6, 2010, 9:46 pm

    Japan has had a two decade-long experience with borrowing to fight deflation.

    Until the US Treasury can’t borrow at historically low interest rates, it looks like a Japanese-style deflationary scenario for the US.

    Recently Congress made the long-term unemployed go “without” for a couple of weeks, but saved those benefits. The US Gov’t will continue its lifeguard role as long as the bond buyers will allow it.

    The slow, very slow bleeding of the wealth in the US will continue.

    When the safety nets of welfare checks, unemployment compensation, food stamps, public (SS, Medicare) and private pension payments are seriously decreased in purchasing power, societal values will unravel in the US.

    I can foresee the possibility of deflation in the CPI, which would allow the gov’t and private companies to decrease payments, like those, above. The last thing I’d expect would be for pensioners and those on welfare to benefit by an increase in purchasing power.

    • BRUCE August 7, 2010, 1:07 am

      Paul,
      I do not see a Japanese style deflation for the U.S. The Japanese had the benefit of very large domestic savings, public debt mostly domestic not foreign, and most of all they are a manufacturing society with a large trade surplus. These things allowed them to drag out the deflation for twenty years, but even they in this great economic downturn will not be able to stretch it out much longer. The US has none of the above going for it and so will go directly to default or inflation.

  • Rich August 6, 2010, 9:40 pm
  • Rich August 6, 2010, 9:22 pm

    Despite today’s headlines proclaiming June Consumer Credit fell less than expected, hoping for a stock market rally, is it not perfectly clear that Consumer Credit declined steadily since 2009 for the first time since 194os?:

    http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/TOTALSL

    This is debt deflation folks, no matter how high the 1980 CPI, currently 8%, goes:

    http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/inflation-charts

    It leads to defaults and depression.

    Let’s save our money…

  • Rich August 6, 2010, 9:14 pm

    Oy, kid you not:
    Bill Gates up the mountain at the Ritz 5-star Techonymy Conference telling people who paid big bucks hoping to get rich that capitalism failed.

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/24596546

    One response is to refer people to Frank Wallace:

    http://www.umclidet.com/pdf/Frank.R..Wallace.-.Neocheating.pdf

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_R._Wallace

  • Myron August 6, 2010, 9:10 pm

    Rick:

    Are you ever going to get it right about inf/def? Or are you just deliberately stirring the pot to generate controversey?

    Milton Freidman had it right: Inflation is everywhere and always a monetary phenomenon. Therefore, it has nothing to do with house prices, jobs or any other asset. All you have to know is how much ‘money’ has been pumped out, regardless of the results. Go to this link for chrissake and stop this dawdling:
    DEBUNKING DEFLATION
    http://www.kitco.com/ind/Saxena/aug042010.html

    and don’t reply unless you have read the article please.

    • Rick Ackerman August 7, 2010, 6:32 pm

      I’m glad you’ve cited Saxena’s essay, since he argues his case so poorly as to make a laughing stock of the inflationist argument. Incidentally, I had linked this essay in the current commentary, since I wanted readers to see it.

  • Max Power August 6, 2010, 7:29 pm

    “And I’m sorry, but the solution isn’t gold.”

    For those who still are unable to grasp why gold is going to keep rising in price, here is a must read:

    http://www.nowandfutures.com/d2/BehaviorOfGoldUnderDeflation.pdf

    Only, now the ENTIRE WORLD (other than Americans) are buying. And the buying is only partly underway. Perhaps Americans are waiting to buy high so they can sell low?

    • Rich August 6, 2010, 8:48 pm

      Re “With a limited pool of hoarding vehicles in today’s marketplace, prices of scarce hoarding vehicles would be bid up.”

      Despite gold up $14 today, some flaws in Sam Hewitt PhD CFA reasoning:

      Japan fought debt deflation with monetary inflation from 1990 on. Gold fell from 1980 until 2000.

      There is no limited safe pool of hoarding vehicles in today’s marketplace, as College and Foundation Endowments learned to their chagrin when their copper, oil, timberland and treasury swap models fell apart and lost them big money.

      This included Lawrence Summers, a Harvard PhD Professor in Economics at 28, Nobel Laureate Nephew, and (obese) Obama Economic Adviser. LS was Harvard President who approved the swaps with JP Morgan to fund more edifice complexes before Harvard had to run to the State of MA to borrow $2.5 B to bail them out.

      http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aHQ2Xh55jI.Q

      Boring old Zero coupon Treasuries and Corporates, including the Exxon Tax Exempt Zero, outperformed all other assets since 1981.

      Scarce cash paying less than 1% during a liquidity crunch with margin calls may catch up to gold any day now.

      Those pointing out gold held value 6000 years perhaps forgot they do not live that long. Those holding gold stocks the last two years watched their wealth dwindle.

      SH says gold does not default, but Cash4Gold, coin dealer premiums, market drops from $1033 to $681, paper gold, pawn shop markdowns and markups, handling costs, thefts and tungsten counterfeiting with no Fed Mint Treasury audit since 1954, all do default, revealing Gold not magic beans.

      Bob Chapman or Jim Sinclair forecasts of $1650 gold by the end of the year became a little hollow after 1980.

      QE I proved, despite BSB promises to Uncle Miltie Friedman on his 90th Birthday re avenging 1929 – 1949, the Fed and Treasury really had no effective reinflation tools to offset debt derivative asset deflation, despite recurrent PsyOp headlines and trial balloons to the contrary.

      All the Fed and Treasury can do is further impoverish the American middle class paying the taxes, usury and doing the work. All Wall Street can do is act as a shill luring fewer and fewer people to play their rigged game.

      QE II, with a money multiplier below One, might only further raise real interest rates and taxes, dropping asset values further, leading to defacto destruction of Big Corporate Government with failing falling tax revenues.

      Thus some call heirloom seeds or lead ammo the ultimate store of value or precious metal.

      When/if the stock market or gold collapse to new Jubilee Generation lows, we may know we are on the way to Schumpeter’s free market creative destruction laying the groundwork for the re-establishment of Constitutional Principles protecting Liberty and Property.

      The 2 November 2010 dis-election of most incumbents may support this.

      Meanwhile, some are exposing the monetary illusion and big lies:

      http://www.infowars.com/

  • kevin August 6, 2010, 6:25 pm

    There is just one thing I can’t get around; in order for deflation to occur debt destruction of the people has to occur correct. But barring mortgages, because these you can walk away from, that only leaves credit card debt. Although abused that amount is managable. The debt resides with the government and debt destruction equals default.

    That argueable won’t happen in the US. So this merry go round has to end sometime and since the US won’t default and won’t stop accumulating debt, logically, when this eye popping debt finally is realized by the holders of the debt as eye popping and non repayable, logically, the accumulation ceases. Then what does the US do? Raise rates, monetize, QE, ETC.

    The people will have money, deflation can’t occur. It will be the country that must experience defation meaning the government and that leads to a currency crisis thus inflation via a devalueing dollar.

    Lastly, Rick that you use government produce CPI as a support for your arguement in this forum is, diplomatic, a joke. Puhlease spare us.

    In big picture I see no deflation, no inflation. Right now it’s a wash. Assets down, essentials up. My money is on a currency crisis and until gold turns the other deflations CAN argue their point until they are blue in the face. Until the barometer of the economy swings, a storm is coming even if you don’t see the clouds.

    &&&&&&

    • Rich August 6, 2010, 7:46 pm

      Re “barring mortgages, because these you can walk away from, that only leaves credit card debt. Although abused that amount is manageable.”

      Derivative debts 70 times the GDP are neither manageable, serviceable or sustainable with 100% taxes. Capital flees or slumbers far before 100% tax rates.

      Growth in consumer debt, which includes the small businesses that create jobs and productivity, while Big Corporate Government confiscates both, peaked after World War II with the GI Bill, up over 50% annual rate of growth.

      We had a roller coaster decline since then, with outright contraction since 2009, despite green shoot recovery headlines to the contrary.

      http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?chart_type=line&s%5B1%5D%5Bid%5D=TOTALSL&s%5B1%5D%5Btransformation%5D=pc1

      We are clearly in the Jubilee Winter Season when capital lies fallow.

      If three quarters of a quadrillion Corporate Government Central Bank derivative debts are repaid or even serviced, they suck the life out of the economy.

      Interest rates are only low nominally because no sane corp or individual wants to borrow at real rates approaching the -40% collapse in Real Estate plus nominal rates. Borrowing only leverages real losses.

      Despite monetarist neoKeynesian hype and a rigged stock market, the 1913 European Central Banker Fed and IRS are falling and failing to sustain usury.

      Although there may be many confusing counter-trend rallies, Jubilee default and deflation are the only ultimate resolution until all the debt is cleared.

      Meanwhile, those telling the truth may be awakening those asleep while the economy burns down…

      http://www.infowars.com/

  • andequip August 6, 2010, 6:16 pm

    With all of this rather intense debate, it clearly indicates that noone really KNOWS anything. The best any of us can do is PREPARE. I guess my old boy scout mentality always prevails.

    Regardless of which way the economy turns, as it surely will, there are some MUST items to check off:
    -Some kind of PAID FOR property.
    -A plan for alternative energy, in your home.
    -Provisions for food and water.
    -Security for you and yours.
    -Things to barter, for trade for other things.
    -A precious metals stash (junk silver, gold, etc)
    -Ability to receive news/info, etc., in the event of “grid failure”.

    Right now is a good time to invest money into tangible, practical equipment/things. Nothing fancy, but quality things that may allow you to live in relative comfort, if you are forced to embrace life “off the grid”.

  • Rich August 6, 2010, 5:52 pm

    Meanwhile, deflating Mr Equity Market looks like a Copper Mountain Ski Slope so far today.
    Margin calls could pull leveraged Copper, Forex, Gold, Silver and Treasuries down into the Black hole of debt derivative deflation in a mad dash for scarce cash.
    Having lost his second (corpulent) economic adviser and thrown fellow African Americans Rangel, Sherrod and Waters overboard, while fashionista wife Michelle, formerly on Daley’s Chicago puff payroll while 0 was on Annenberg Foundation with Terrorist Bill Ayers, skipped 0’s birthday with their daughter to enjoy taxpayer dollars at five star luxury resorts in Europe, 6o rooms and government staff.

    0 plays more golf than any President, including Woodrow Wilson. It gradually becomes clear why the Teleprompter President without a bona fide US birth certificate and foreign scholarship college records was picked for President:
    0, his advisers and bosses, appear to have little respect for what it takes to slay Goliath corporate vampire werewolf government to protect the Constitutional Principles of liberty and prosperity for all American citizens without the deep cover underwater government agencies and private Fed in the red passing bills and nominees without reading them.
    The privately-owned Fed bought insolvent Mortgages, and now tries to engineer their liquidation at taxpayer expense. Only the taxpayers are out of money and work. What we face after years of big corporate government corruption, is the collapse of same, Mother Nature’s way of clearing the chaff. So far it took one decade. It may take one or two more unless Big Corporate Foundation Government stops trying to avoid their inevitable day of reckoning…

  • Robert August 6, 2010, 5:43 pm

    Rick Ackerman-

    Great touts on the titles:

    Myers “The Coming Deflation”

    Fergusson’s “When Money Dies: The Nightmare of the Weimar Hyper-inflation.”

    I’m currently on chapter 4 of the Fergusson book (first published when I was about 7 years old 🙂

    I’d add another, more recent title:

    Neil Howe’s “The 4th Turning”

    Howe presents his viewpoints from a rather generalist viewpoint (daring to classify entire generations of people based on some esoteric character traits)-but the book does present a theme that seems to be consistent with history so far as “group think” goes…

    I’m not going to throw any more firewood into the inflation/deflation conflagration, but I will throw props out to Chris T. who took time to “tighten up” some of my looser statements about Weimar in yesterday’s column.

    I personally think people will start seeing reality for what it is when they stop using the inflation/deflation terms only as they pertain to price levels and currency.

    There is a much larger picture here than the CPI, or the price of Acuras, or the price of houses…

  • richard August 6, 2010, 5:37 pm

    Putting currency into the hands of the public is easy. Call it guaranteed annual income, or any name you wish, you simply mail everyone a cheque. Spending happens, debts are repaid with less valuable currency, economic activity and tax revenue goes up, value of debt goes down. Americans pretend to not understand socialism.

    &&&&&

    So, do you think all of the big losers in this arrangement — i.e., B of A, Goldman Sachs, Citi, J.P. Morgan, all holders of Treasury debt, et al. — will go along with it for patriotic reasons? RA

  • Oliver August 6, 2010, 5:03 pm

    R-Mark; Reichsmark.
    You are on the mark, I suspect, if you think the German hyperinflation was a purposeful thing. Getting rid of debt felt as an unjustified burden the aggressive and destructive way like kicking the few poker-chips left through the room as everything else mathematically – and socially – made no more sense. The US-situation is in my opinion much more Japan-like: a hopelessly fouled banking system and a hopelessly popped real-estate market. Remedy: more debt through fiscal on and off activities and money printing into a deflating basin, which you can basically do forever until confidence would pop and everybody ran for the Euro. US sovereign debt is 45% of all the world´s sovereign debt now forecast by IMF for 2010. A US hyperinflation would occur if the dollar just goes into full free fall. As the Dollar is at 65% worldwide transaction currency, I figure it will (actually hopefully – see how hopes change) be the Japanese “fixing-the-system” forever game until the US looks like Mexico, slowly, year over year, like a slow disease one gets somehow used to.
    If I were President, I´d recommend giving anybody who can buy a house cash in full and sustain their life without work for a while a permanent residence and green card and ignite a thus qualified migration into the US. Desperate times, desperate measures.
    Today, I think, we must actually pray for a Japan-style thing kept in gear by a growing globalization, i.e. areas like Africa, Latin-America, Asia, Russia etc “making” it more and more. All hope.

  • BRUCE August 6, 2010, 5:00 pm

    People talk about inflation and deflation as though they were two autonomous forces struggling with one another. They are the product of government policies. If the government prints 2 trillion dollars and sequesters it in banks there is no inflation. If the government prints 2 trillion dollars and gives it to Mainstreet directly there is instant inflation. It is entirely a function of government policy, so the real question is “what will the goverment do next?”

    &&&&&&

    Even though the fatal problem of “pushing on a string” was well-known and of paramount concern to the financial-newsletter world, I doubt that the imbeciles who run our monetary policy could have imagined that liquefying the banks to the extent they did would produce zero results. But it is nonetheless true, as you imply, that the surefire way to inflate would have been for Helicopter Ben simply to have lived up to his nickname.

    It’s a little late for that now, what with the Federal deficit already growing by a trillion dollars per year, but who knows? Since mortgage debt is at the heart of U.S. (and global) deflation, it is mortgage debt that will have to be ameliorated in some drastic way. My hunch, as I’ve said before, is that mortgage contracts will ultimately be rewritten as leases. Tax breaks will play into it, since, as of this moment, mortgage-debt forgiveness is taxable. Obama would probably apportion forgiveness on a sliding scale based on household incomes — but of course, he won’t be President when this piece of legislation is drafted. (In the unlikely event Ron Paul is President, he would surely go down in history as The Great Deflator.) Meanwhile, anyone looking for Jubilee forgiveness — either de facto, by way of hyperinflation, or via an edict proclaiming all debts null and void –can forget about it, since that would destroy savers and lenders as a class and make borrowing impossible for at least the next 10 years, and possibly for a generation or longer. RA

    • BRUCE August 6, 2010, 10:28 pm

      With a November election coming you can bet something big is coming soon. This president will not suffer defeat this easily. Mortgage forgiveness may alienate more voters than it brings on board. The helicopter drop, to me, is the most likely scenario. I see no inclination to worry about savers. Getting past the election will be job 1. Remember, a helicopter drop gets everyone on board at the same time as helping people pay their mortgages.

      &&&&&&

      You need to think the idea of a helicopter drop through, since that is very nearly what it would take, and it seems doubtful that such a radical solution would be politically feasible. Bear in mind that the very essence of politics is to diligently and relentlessly pursue failure in increments too small for voters to notice. That’s why this never-ending bailout’s biggest air-drop so far was the relatively negligible sum mailed out to taxpayers a couple of years ago — less than $1000, if memory serves. To merely top up homeowners, restoring value lost since 2007, would probably require a check for at least $50,000 to each and every taxpayer who received the $1000-or-less payment earlier.

      Incidentally, from a practical standpoint all it would take to effectuate this solution would be the enactment of a two-year moratorium on taxes on income up to around $400,000 per year. Now THAT would be inflationary — but it would also provide an immensely powerful economic stimulus. Workers might need to make twice as much (or more) as before to keep up with the inflation that would result, but it would surely get the economy humming — maybe even with the kind of real-wealth-generating productivity that has been missing from the economy since the 1950s. RA

    • mario cavolo August 7, 2010, 2:42 am

      ah, in fact Rick, here in China, home ownership is based on a 70 year lease of the land on which the building stands. So, while someone does own the apartment in the building with a deed, it is under the real estate developers contract with the govt on that 70 year lease, the right to develop that parcel of land. This points up the greatness of the suburban American Dream!!!…where you can buy a private home on your private plot of land with a 2 car garage and a pool at a reasonable price, especially now. Here in China, no such freedom and flexibility if I want to live in a private home; its in a “villa” compound by some developer.

      Cheers, Mario

  • JohnJay August 6, 2010, 4:42 pm

    Let’s see what Obama/Bernanke dream up for Freddie/Fannie before the elections.
    Will they dictate a massive principal reduction?
    Will they lower everyones interest rate to support still inflated housing prices?
    I bet they do the second one, prices on Treasuries are soaring in spite of massive deficits, it is doable now.
    They need to keep up the value of those Freddie/Fannie bonds or whatever the hell they have morphed into so they don’t need to actually bail out anyone else with cash.
    Give the debt slaves affordable payments so extend and pretend can continue.
    I agree with TC that there is no way for the proles to get their hands on enough money to support hyperinflation
    much beyond energy prices which seem to be drifting up lately.
    I gave up on politics awhile ago, but now I see Obama, Bernanke, and Congress as more actors than politicians.
    Acting out the script where everything is fine and they are looking out for the country while the special interests finish looting the treasury.

    • ZW August 6, 2010, 6:45 pm

      Should the current administration decide to take and have the “current” homeowners (ones that have paid on time) re-sign on the dotted line for new loans, I think that there will be a fair amount of fine print tied to those loans. For one, I foresee the government finding a way to make the remaining 1/3 of homes, that aren’t fully owned, controlled indefinitely by big gov. Likely through hastened foreclosure provisions that will very possibly create a government that is able to become the landlord to the distressed tenant/previous owner. Dangle the carrot and watch the rabbits swarm. Citizens are still too trusting in the gov. and they will sign for the immediate benefits thus foregoing clearly printed and labeled end results. It’s the same exact plan that has been shoved into our faces in the form of universal health care. The real effects have been dumped on the coming administration. These things are so obvious it is pitiful that we are forced to watch as they are spat into our faces. Human nature doesn’t seem to change, only circumstances.

  • Frank August 6, 2010, 3:42 pm

    First time poster. I value the comments left by the informed readers. Nadler over on Kitco seems to think gold is going lower. How will deflation impact the short and long term price of metals? Thanks.

    &&&

    Nadler nearly always “thinks” gold is going lower. He’s not very popular around here. RA

  • rockingham August 6, 2010, 2:55 pm

    Rick…
    Same for me. “The Great Reckoning” made me into a deflationist. Meaning of course that deflation would be the endgame, not hyper inflation. Few remember Vern Myers but he was actually in People magazine circa 1982. I remember reading it

    Robert Prechter has been holed up in rural Georgia for 25-30 years waiting for his SHTF scenario to pan out. He has been wrong for decades but then so were goldbugs from 1980 to 2001. Gold and oil started trending up in September 2001. Osma Bin Ladin is why Alan Greenspan opened up the (easy money) floodgates. Bin Ladin created the real estate and stock market bubbles and it only cost him $500,000 to do it. To pull off 911 and to get America to spend trillions in Iraq and Afghanistan. Not to mention all our dead and injured.

  • Phil C August 6, 2010, 2:27 pm

    I bring again “velocity of money”. I’m a bit surprise that instead Rick you bring the term used by Keynes to describe this: “liquidity preference” where he described it from the other angle – how much people want to “keep” their money rather than for velocity of money – how fast they want to spend it. Talk about Keynes the paper bug to reverse the angle on this!

    And aren’t 50% of all US dollars *outside* of the US?
    This velocity of money match that lights up the fire could be triggered outside of the US, couldn’t it be then, right?
    Yes, as the book said, the Germans failed to see the threat of hyperinflation while printing. (Same here) Relatively contained inflation then… until the match which made people lose confidence on the mark got light up.
    We are in deflation while we have a threat of food inflation ahead, showing us a fight leading to a CPI floating just slightly above 0%. The more the economy is going down the drain, the more printing they will have to do. If they raises taxes, the economy will contract even more, more printing. How long this environment will stay, I don’t know. 1 year? 3 years? Better prepare for both possibility at the very least.

  • Joseph August 6, 2010, 7:47 am

    “Would America’s political leaders be so stupid as to let hyperinflation occur inadvertently” Are you kidding me?
    Never underestimate the stupidity of a politician.

  • Benjamin August 6, 2010, 6:01 am

    “Under the circumstances, Helicopter Ben & Co. might as well be attempting to raise the level of the seas using a garden hose.”

    Heck, let ’em punch a hole straight through earth so as to drain the Pacific into the Atlantic. Still ain’t gonna raise the sea level a notch, let alone touch the sky!

  • TC August 6, 2010, 5:39 am

    In order for the government to be able to get the money into peoples hands to cause inflation most people would have to be working for the government. That’s not happening right?

    Oh wait, nevermind… 🙂

    • Benjamin August 6, 2010, 6:12 am

      The Big H has happened in other places without that being the case. But in this case, even now, with govt being the single largest employer, we’re not seeing anything close to hyper.

      That should tell ya everything about that hypothesis and why. a) it’s impossible for government to employ 100% of the able population and b) even if they could, they’d have to pay millions to each worker, and there is no saying that that would automatically be the case.

      In fact, that’s not preferable at all because what they get back through taxation doesn’t allow them to stay ahead of the rise. From the perspective of central planners, it’s best to keep as many out of any kind of work, feed them crumbs, and keep a firm grip on the remainder who are still working (non government) and running businesses.

  • rockingham August 6, 2010, 5:17 am

    The German hyperinflation took place (literally) via the printing press money. Via paper currency. Paper currency is a minor part of of today’s US money supply. Today the markets electronically render instant judgment. Read “The Great Reckoning” for more on this reasoning on why it is impossible today to default via hyperinflation. Default via an involuntary (helicopter Ben will work furiously against this) deflation implosion is more likely. Vern Myers also comes to mind. He smoked so much that the nicotine made him a genius. Every pilot in WW2 smoked. Eisenhower and other top commanders smoked. It raises IQ until it makes you ill.

    Ever notice how the hyperinflation types like Peter Schiff are kind of hyper? Look at Mish. Kind of chubby and phlegmatic while Peter Schiff is skinny with a spiky frantic haircut. Our venerable host is slow speaking and considered too on video. Maybe its the thin air and the ski slopes 🙂

    &&&&&&

    I’d read C.V. Myers “The Coming Deflation” more than a decade earlier, but it was “The Great Reckoning” (TGR) that hardened my deflationist instincts. I owe TGR co-author Jim Davidson a debt of gratitude, because it was he, in a series of letters we exchanged, who rekindled my interest in writing. I resumed my career in journalism 15 years ago with a deflationist essay for Barron’s that described the Fed’s inflation hawks as “friendly fire” — i.e., pointed in the wrong direction.

    TGR presented a detailed and superbly balanced chapter on the inflation vs. deflation argument, but Jim told me that he himself leaned somewhat toward the case for inflation. I found his arguments more persuasive for deflation, however, since, as he and Lord Rees-Mogg had made quite clear, a political decision to hyperinflate would be tantamount to deliberately destroying savers and lenders as a class, as well as all institutional conduits of savings (chiefly the banks and bond markets). A deflationary endgame — i.e., letting endless waves of bankruptcies take their course — at least had the appeal of visiting punishment on debtors in proportion to their sins.

    Incidentally, I consider Bob Prechter THE expert’s expert on deflation. He may have missed the mark where bullion is concerned, but he has been right — and prescient — about nearly everything else. RA

    • mikeck August 6, 2010, 5:48 pm

      rockingham wrote: “…it is impossible today to default via hyperinflation. Default via an involuntary (helicopter Ben will work furiously against this) deflation implosion is more likely.”

      True on the first part, but not only is it impossible via hyperinflation, it is impossible in any scenario to default when contracts are denominated in something that you can create at will.

      Bankruptcy is a horse of a different color…some insist, and they get no disagreement from me, that the US is already bankrupt.

      I hope everyone has the three g’s…they even work in deflation.

      Mike

    • Benjamin August 6, 2010, 6:28 pm

      RA: “A deflationary endgame — i.e., letting endless waves of bankruptcies take their course — at least had the appeal of visiting punishment on debtors in proportion to their sins.”

      Hmm… I’m going to try and take a stab at criticizing/questioning this notion.

      Punishment? I’m not sure what is meant by that. If they don’t have the money, they don’t pay the money and it gets written down, no? And that being the case, lenders don’t get back the money they never really had to lend, and homeowners never collect on the value when they go to sell. Everyone breaks even?

      But then banks don’t lend. Sweet, sweet punishment!
      But the thing is, “today’s interest” (meaning the hypothetical) is a reflection of yesterday’s failures. And if yesterday’s failures where all based on yesterday’s erroneous expectations… Why should the punishment remain?

      &&&&&&&

      Bankruptcy court’s role is to extract as much as it can from the debtor. Incidentally, taking out a home equity loan on top of a first mortgage negates the non-recourse provision that effectively allows a bankrupt individual to keep his house. RA

    • Benjamin August 6, 2010, 9:21 pm

      @RA: Evict the dead-beat debtor, lender gains a house that they probably won’t be able to sell or even rent. Not at all different than letting them keep it, and banks not having as much as they ever expected to have to lend in the future. But while bankruptcy courts may currently rule, I think those rules will change when the sheer numbers involved begin to hit home. Can’t have screaming mobs going about burning down empty houses. So at least they wouldn’t have to deal with that.

      Rightly or wrongly, I just can’t see it differently. But I see you got your hand full here, so I’ll give it a rest.

  • rockingham August 6, 2010, 4:57 am

    I have been checking DDR prices on New Egg for three years because I bulid computers on casual basis. They are falling now (by offering rebates) for the last two weeks. I see this as a deflationary indicator. This is what I look at — http://tinyurl.com/2dcm6vk

    I see 2 x 2gb as what most people want for Windows 7 or an Apple computer. Desktops that is

    &&&&

    Hard to say. A decade ago, freelancing research to Grassroots Research, I tracked grey market suppliers for SDR and DDR closely and rarely saw prices do much but fall. RA

    • ZW August 6, 2010, 6:26 pm

      I suppose because today I can purchase a desktop computer for as little as $300 that has the same computing power as its equivalent but available 10 years ago for $2500 shows obvious deflation as well?? Technology is doubling every 18 months, how can you use that as an economic indicator??

      &&&&&

      Austrian-school economist Kurt Richebacher used this concept to debunk productivity figures that dishonestly hyped Greenspan-ish productivity gains that were based on increases in the horsepower of GM and Ford autos. RA

  • jj August 6, 2010, 4:43 am

    Rick, what about hyper-inflation brought on by the loss of confidence in the US$, isn’t hyperinflation caused by the loss of confidence in the value of any currency as exchange for goods?

    The INSANE global QEasing of today especially in the US could cause confidence is the US$ to evaporate overnight in the FX markets, no?

    What price will every commodity be valued when the reserve currency devalues from loss of confidence?

    What will the ultimate currency, Gold be worth?

    • BDTR August 6, 2010, 2:29 pm

      A critical and largely ignored point, jj. And as JeffM above notes, our technological facility to issue dollar denominated digital credits outstrips any physical printing/distribution capacity of Weimar Germany.

      A very bothersome aspect of this argument is the loose use of in/de-flation as something other than a money supply issue.

      Prices in any given market rise and fall from a complex breadth of causation. But, rise and fall in asset price is simply that. Price may, or not, be directly resulting the rate of money supply as pertinently now a likelihood in an escalating mode of QE. Markets individually may only reflect what’s potentially a in/de-flation monetary supply trend.

      To say that a rise/decline in a denominated price of anything is in/de-flation is confusing to CAUSE (over-under demand in supply of a medium of exchange) and EFFECT (a denominated asset price) and distorts the debate.

      &&&&&

      Ralph, I read those last two paragraphs several times, unable to understand what you were trying to say. That’s why I am encouraging people to get away from the simple but useless notion that “inflation is an increase in the supply of money.” Economists’ blind obeisance to this idea has led them to wrongly predict huge CPI inflation since 1991 and to overlook the fact that, more recently, trillions of dollars worth of monetary (and fiscal) stimulus have not created even a whiff of inflation.

      Concerning money “technology,” the point has been ignored for good reason, since it is nonsense to argue about digital money’s supposed advantages in efficiency over printing press money when the latter can be disseminated in the form of $100 quintillion notes if the issuer so chooses. Yeah, sure, with digital distribution taxpayers would save money on the trucks, pallettes and crates needed to distribute paper money. But so what — that wasn’t your point. And let’s not overlook the formidable obstacles that the fine print on your credit card agreement would place in front of any attempt to distribute massive quantities of digital money? Would the banks raise our credit limits overnight to $100,000,000,000? (A small blessing, perhaps, since the FDIC would have outlived its usefulness by then.)

      Why can’t we all just get along by adopting my understanding of deflation: an increase in the real burden of debt. Everyone can understand this because it is the most palpable and painful aspect of deflation — the part of deflation that literally hits home. RA

  • JeffM August 6, 2010, 4:42 am

    Are you guys honestly implying that german employers out class the electronic printing press??!??!?!?!

    Not one note of paper needs to be printed to get this thing to go. The fed is going to buy and buy and buy and buy and squander, the money will filter down into hard assets and things that produce more electronic paper from the fed. Eventually the jig will be up and bang…everything will be rising. Including house prices. The buzz word going around is ponzi scheme and they are right!

    The next increase in house prices will look like the stock market circa 2000-2007. In nominal terms they will double, in real terms (i.e gold), total destruction (83% loss).

    But to the fool on the street they will have doubled.
    Who knows, by then all confidence will be lost, and the fool will be the wiser.

    The USDX will be .6 or .5 and all will be right with the world and gold will keep going higher, then 1 million USD will not buy you a cup of coffee and struddle.

    • mario cavolo August 6, 2010, 4:43 pm

      ..now you’re cookin’ Jeff!….Cheers, Mario

    • Fred August 8, 2010, 1:34 pm

      “Not one note of paper needs to be printed to get this thing to go. The fed is going to buy and buy and buy and buy and squander, the money will filter down into hard assets and things that produce more electronic paper from the fed. Eventually the jig will be up and bang…everything will be rising. Including house prices”

      Humbug. For housing prices to go up, there has to be demand. Hard to find when everyone is losing their jobs.
      If govt wasnt subsidizing and relegislating(allow price caps to come off utilities), prices for everything would be falling accross the board.
      The only way commodity prices rise is if the dollar becomes so worthless that everything (including food and Chinese crap) we import becomes more expensive. That would then give rise to more local production as new entrants to the market move to increase supply in order to profit, which in turn lowers prices.
      There will be counterveiling forces in commodity supplies so if there are price increases, they will be temporary.

  • SDavid August 6, 2010, 3:59 am

    I agree with you about housing.

    What about food, taxes and utilities?

    Will we not see hyperinflation in the three?

    And if we do, is hyperinflation NOT hyperinflation?

    Will we not be expected to subsidize (as taxpayers) all those pension funds who promised their contributors a home by the sea?

    Sure, housing will undoubtedly drop, but inflation or deflation, gold or no gold ….

    They’re going to come after “us” to pay the piper.

    And I’m sorry, but the solution isn’t gold.

    As bad as it sounds, the solution is leaving the US behind.

    The US gov’t, after all, left US citizens behind a long time ago.

    And now we can see (as plain as day) the price to be paid.

    Sad but true.

    • Benjamin August 6, 2010, 6:20 am

      “As bad as it sounds, the solution is leaving the US behind.”

      Well, then I sure hope your bags are packed… no, make that unpacked in your chosen paradise.

      And I find it amazing that you think no solution would ever work, other than no solution at all.

      Talk about paradox…

    • SDavid August 6, 2010, 6:38 am

      Benjamin:

      You obviously don’t spend much time reading day to day chat here. If you did, you might appreciate that I am only reiterating what people are too afraid to admit.

      “Hey, here’s the latest youtube video about how our own government (the one we elect) is screwing us.”

      “Oh look, here’s Max Keiser telling us the same thing.”

      “Wow! Didja know the US government refused help from other countries during the BP crisis?”

      These are things I read every single day in the chat room here.

      Meanwhile, Jim Rogers (another chat room hero) has already left.

      I realize packing up the bags and leaving (like Rogers did) isn’t all that easy.

      As for my self-contradictory statements (paradox)?

      What gets resolved by buying gold and waiting for what many here seem to think is “the inevitable?”

      Most here already think the government is totally corrupt. the US is screwed and there is no solution, so don’t lay your “paradox” BS on me.

    • Benjamin August 6, 2010, 8:38 am

      I obviously don’t read anything here? Oh, boy…

      1) I do. There aren’t many days where I don’t post at least some comment, and often two or more to comments made by others.

      2) Afraid to admit what? We’ve got one of the simplest problems man has ever had to solve!

      3) What you and you alone have the stones to admit is that plateletes won’t save a hemophiliac simply because he hasn’t stopped bleeding from adding more blood all this time.

      “What gets resolved by buying gold and waiting for what many here seem to think is “the inevitable?”

      I bet if I were to ask of the forum readers, someone would probably come along and tell you exactly what I think about gold and why. I’ve made it tiringly obvious these past months, after all.

      Anyway, as to your questions about food, taxes and utilities… First, cross taxes off the list. They’re going to go up, up, up. As for the rest, that all depends. Are we going to be silly and hopeless or sensible people of action that demand the solution be implemented? If not the latter, then as people die so should demand. Crushing depression is exactly what we’ll have, until we don’t.

    • DanX August 6, 2010, 3:52 pm

      You really gotta think hard before leaving the US. I left and I’m very content. But I didn’t leave because I was disgruntled with the “system”. I left because I was attracted to this SE Asian country 25 years ago when I was deployed in the military. I felt an affinity toward the country and the culture a long time ago. As circumstances would have it, I had an opportunity to move here three years ago. I sold everything I owned in the US and left with no plans of returning. But this isn’t everyone’s cup of tea. My new home is a country that has its own internal problems (government and corporate corruption, graft, cronyism, unscrupulous, ego-centric CEOs and business executives, social stratification, and a lot of unhappy poor folk). Same old stuff, just a change of scenery. But what is different here is – the middle class is growing, and the country is growing. And BTW, you’re not going to “get away” from the US government. Capital controls have been instituted and they want to know every dime (ringat, baht, rupee, peso) that you’re making inside and outside the US. Plus you don’t get to participate in the US entitlement programs like Medicare. You’re on your own – but I like it that way. So personally, I don’t think leaving is the answer for 99.9% of disgruntled US citizens. Staying in the country and working to change the system might be a better answer. You may want to start by trying to vote your incumbent legislators out of office. It would be a start IMHO 😉